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Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: Aug 25, 2007 20:41    Post subject: Wikis View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

They're, like, the in thing now for fandoms, right? Our ancient rivals Doom and Marathon both have one, as do many others. I have no idea how one would go about starting it, or whether it would be better to have it hosted here or elsewhere; I just wanted to mention the idea and make sure that people agree that it'd be good to have one.

(There's a wiki-appearing website at http://dforces.wikispaces.com, but it appears to not have anything to do with DF.)

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: Aug 29, 2007 03:07    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

I put up a wiki on my personal LAN web server. They're surprisingly easy to set up, got an install script and everything. Just needs PHP and MySQL and you're ready to go.

I downloaded the wiki software here (it's the same stuff that Wikipedia etc uses).

The only caveat is I hear that linking accounts with any forum software is a pain in the arse. So I recommend against trying it.

If we end up with a Wiki, I'll be sure to contribute more than my fair share of articles with snippets from various sources about jump lengths, weapon damage, user missions, failed third-party engines, etc.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: Sep 20, 2007 19:41    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

http://gameinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Gameinfo:Mini-wiki is apparently one possibility, at least to start with. I'm not doing it, though; at least not while I'm still in school. Probably.

Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: Dec 21, 2007 18:40    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Also: for now, you might at least be able to get away with adding information about weapon damage at SWGames and about user missions at Star Wars Modding Wikia.

Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: Feb 10, 2008 07:23    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

And I just found a link on a Wikipedia page* to a site called simply ModdingWiki, which says: 'This Wiki is intended to become a useful reference for people interested in editing or "modding" classic games - those from the early to mid 1990s.' So there's more than one candidate for the technical side at least; should we pick one and declare it the Officially Endorsed Wiki of DF-21?

*Jill of the Jungle, not that it's important.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 09, 2008 08:16    Post subject: Ready to launch! View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

If I were to set in motion a wiki for Dark Forces, how many people would be interested in supplying it with content?

I'm envisioning sections on:
  • Plot
    • Characters
  • Levels
    • Walkthroughs
    • Item Locations
    • Secrets
  • Weapons
  • Enemies
  • Modding
    • Resources
    • Techniques
    ...

I'm normally for taking things one step at a time, but I'm prepared to get things going forthwith – I have an account at Wikidot (trust me, an excellent service) and I'm an administrator of a wiki there, too, so I've seen them develop and I know how to make one tick. I can only request that I get the help I need to fill it.

Oh, and I'll handle all the stylizing as well. It's important to create a suitable atmosphere to work under. I'll even play the Nazi card as required to get things sorted and formatted to a respectable degree; God knows I love tables and lists of data, something that I'm really looking forward to putting together.

So then, does df-21.wikidot.com sound good? Domain forwarding and custom domains are supported as well.

–Weregoose

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 12, 2008 14:46    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

That many, huh?

Well, here's the inauguration—Click!

If you know what's missing, then go ahead and add it in. That's what I'll be doing in the weeks to come; I would be thankful to have anyone's support.

Moreover, if anything looks like it needs adjusting stylistically, let me know.

–Goose

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 12, 2008 15:13    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

I prefer Wikimedia's layout. This "Wikidot" seems to rip out the helpful top of the page links and moves them all the way down to the bottom where they aren't easily seen or used. And then it leaves a blank, unused space on the top. That makes all the sense in the WORLD to me.

It would also probably be more convenient to host our own wiki on the DF-21.net domain (looks more professional too). Like I said Wikimedia is easy to set up and configure. The only hard part is if you want the nice URLs like Wikipedia does instead of using filename.php_querystring URLs, but there are tutorials on different ways to set that up so that's not hard either.

It appears to be ad-driven (I'm guessing that's what the empty space is for) but I can't be sure since Adblock Plus does such a kick-arse job. <3 Of course Wikimedia is ad-free from the get-go.

It doesn't allow anonymous editing, which is a BIG reason why wikis are successful in the first place! I would even go so far as to say it's the whole POINT of having a wiki!

Also I don't really like the theme. If our wiki would have a custom theme it should be modeled after the current site theme... at any rate I think it would look better than your theme. Sorry.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 12, 2008 16:02    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Okay, duly noted. I added two declarations in the CSS to bring up the links, and the unused space can certainly be filled up. I just went with the base stylesheet to allow for more elbow room at the start, and it just so happened that I didn't put anything up there.

Wikidot is ad-free, utterly and wholly.

As I said, the domain name can be customized, so df-21.net/wiki, for instance, is an easy possibility.

I have just enabled anonymous editing – that was an oversight on my part. Now, anyone can show up and do pretty much everything except delete pages. (The worst that they can do is move it to a "deleted" category.)

Lastly, I actually started patterning the wiki after this site (and practically finished), but—oh, foolish me—I got creative. I can bring that a notch back if it's more desirable that way.

I thought it was all pretty good for just 10 hours.

Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 12, 2008 16:52    Post subject: Re: Ready to launch! View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Weregoose wrote:
If I were to set in motion a wiki for Dark Forces, how many people would be interested in supplying it with content?


I'd be interested, but no promises to actually do it.

Weregoose wrote:
I'm envisioning sections on:
  • Plot
    • Characters
  • Levels
    • Walkthroughs
    • Item Locations
    • Secrets
  • Weapons
  • Enemies
  • Modding
    • Resources
    • Techniques
    ...


I'm not sure I dig the idea of a wiki having rigidly defined sections. The Wikipedia model where all articles are independent things and can be in any number of categories works pretty well for me.

Weregoose wrote:
So then, does df-21.wikidot.com sound good? Domain forwarding and custom domains are supported as well.


I was kind of hoping for some discussion on whether it was better to start a DF drive at one or more existing wikis. That way we'd avoid redundancy and potentially attract contributors (to the wiki and to DF-21) who otherwise wouldn't bother to look for us. It sounds like a positive-sum game to me.

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 12, 2008 16:53    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

Weregoose wrote:
Wikidot is ad-free, utterly and wholly.



Then what's this script doing included in your wiki? And why's it on their site? old skool confusion

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 12, 2008 16:59    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

That'd be an optional feature, AdSense, which I'm leaving disabled.

https://www.wikidot.com/panel:adsense

It is contradictory to what I said earlier, it being ad-free, but since it's a voluntary process, I consider it perfectly harmless.

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 13, 2008 03:14    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

But it's RUNNING in every page on your wiki, and DOING STUFF (I checked the JS source). Just remove the external reference if you're not using it.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 13, 2008 04:43    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

What if we enabled AdSense and let it go toward donations for DF-21?

By the way, new banner:



I'm addressing the theme now to make it look similar to df-21.net.

(It's being done locally, so it'll be one large update when I'm finished.)

Fenwar
Admiral Ackbar
Admiral Ackbar

Joined: 15 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 13, 2008 13:41    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

I like it!

The wiki, the theme, and even the banner. Smile

I've signed up on wikidot (was nice and simple) and created a page at http://df-21.wikidot.com/editing (I know the conventional term is "modding" but this community has tended to use "editing"...)

I'd be very happy to contribute a bit of content when I can.

I think the structure is a good idea to start with at least, so that we have some pegs to hang things off... I'm sure there's scope for articles to be added outside this once things get going.

I've no objection to adsense, if you'd like to donate to DF-21 you'd be very welcome, but even if you want to pocket the money yourself* that's fine by me, so long as its stated up front. OTOH I'm not entirely keen on the fact that the script is still present in pages even when you've set it to supposedly be "disabled"... (I also use adblock to eliminate such tracking, but it really shouldn't be there).

If it's really not removable I'd be happy to provide subdomain hosting (e.g. wiki.df-21.net) and enable whatever server-side features are necessary for us to run our own wiki, but I haven't got the time/energy to manage an installation so that would have to be up to someone else?

All in all though I'm really glad someone has made the effort to get things going, and I'm sure plenty of people here will contribute.

(* actual income may not be sufficient to fill a standard-sized pocket)

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 13, 2008 14:16    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

Fenwar wrote:
(* actual income may not be sufficient to fill a standard-sized pocket)



Laughing

I think Brian (from Massassi) used to have ads (on Massassi) but they didn't earn hardly anything 'cause we were all too smart to click them.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 13, 2008 21:20    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Fenwar wrote:
If it's really not removable I'd be happy to provide subdomain hosting (e.g. wiki.df-21.net) and enable whatever server-side features are necessary for us to run our own wiki, but I haven't got the time/energy to manage an installation so that would have to be up to someone else?

The AdSense script really isn't removable, I just found out – TOS issue.

To get the Wikidot software, this is the relevant place to start, but I would use a 301 redirect; once the appropriate CNAME record has been given a "wikidot.com" value, I'll do what's needed in the wiki admin panel to finish the job.

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 14, 2008 01:06    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

I believe I already recommended Wikimedia (it's what Wikipedia et al use) and already explained I have installed it and it was exceedingly easy. The main config stuff is handled via an in-browser PHP based setup IIRC. Just FYI. >_> I mean as long as you're willing to install and use wiki software, why not the software everyone uses anyway and is the most popular variant and is the variant used by the most popular wikis? I'm sure all the popularity isn't an accident.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 14, 2008 02:36    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

I'm not about to care at this point, quite frankly. Wink There's no valid excuse to not be able to add anything to it in its current state: in my opinion, trading one sufficient medium for another (possibly better) medium is akin to fixing something that isn't broken.

I've put together a rough draft for the level template.

What this means is that the source code for sec-base has been brought down to:

Code:
[[include inc:level
|lvlnumber = I
|screenshot = secbase.png
|title = Secret Base
|subtitle = Operation Skyhook: Phase 2
|lvlname = SECBASE
|palette = secbase
|music = AVENGE
]]
//content//

And this format will carry across to the pages for the other levels.

[EDIT]

Now I've stuck in...

Code:
|previous=(page name of previous level)
|next=(...)

...and then edited the include to allow movement from one level page to the next.

Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 14, 2008 04:22    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

I'm also casting a vote for Wikimedia (isn't it MediaWiki?) on the grounds that I'm lazy, and I doubt I'll ever feel inclined to teach myself a whole new interface and markup language just for something like this.

As for the level template, I'd probably include author, series, release date, and possibly enemies as additional fields; and possibly not palette.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 14, 2008 05:11    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Darth Oosha wrote:
As for the level template, I'd probably include author, series, release date, and possibly enemies as additional fields; and possibly not palette.

...Then I'll work those in... "later"...

Darth Oosha wrote:
I'm also casting a vote for Wikimedia (isn't it MediaWiki?) on the grounds that I'm lazy, and I doubt I'll ever feel inclined to teach myself a whole new interface and markup language just for something like this.

If that's carried out, then I'm not doing styles a third time; my heart couldn't take it.

On a more serious note, I've only seen positive comments from one person – that's it! It's nice to know that there's still love in the world. But so that we're on the same page, it's taking a lot of effort on my part to keep my otherwise healthy enthusiasm from burning to a crisp. I can take the bad criticism with the good criticism, but as I've been receiving pretty much only the bad, my motivation to press harder to appease the crowd becomes less and less. I'm not really aiming at anyone in particular, but in general this is how I'm starting to feel: it's the quintessential well-meaning but not well-received. Be kind to me, I'm only human; this is about as honest as it gets.

(Voice from the back: "DRAMA QUEEN!")

klasodeth
Trandoshan

Joined: 03 Mar 2008

PostPosted: May 14, 2008 09:09    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Weregoose wrote:

...On a more serious note, I've only seen positive comments from one person – that's it! It's nice to know that there's still love in the world. But so that we're on the same page, it's taking a lot of effort on my part to keep my otherwise healthy enthusiasm from burning to a crisp. I can take the bad criticism with the good criticism, but as I've been receiving pretty much only the bad, my motivation to press harder to appease the crowd becomes less and less. I'm not really aiming at anyone in particular, but in general this is how I'm starting to feel: it's the quintessential well-meaning but not well-received. Be kind to me, I'm only human; this is about as honest as it gets...



I understand your frustration, but do keep in mind that the Dark Forces community is basically on life support. Dark Forces never really got the attention it deserved relative to other FPS at the time. And it doesn't help that unlike a number of other games from that era, the Dark Forces source code never went public. The only noteworthy effort to create an updated Dark Forces engine that I am aware of (prior to DarkXL) resulted in a spectacular crash-and-burn. Lots of stuff that should have happened to Dark Forces never did, or failed miserably, so there is a lot of reason for the community to be jaded. DarkXL is probably the first really good news for Dark Forces in many years, and there was quite a bit of skepticism surrounding that project at first. Considering that the project still has quite a ways to go, I wouldn't be surprised if there are still a number of skeptics.

So anyway, the community has a lot of reason to be negative, but don't let that discourage you. For that matter, don't try to satisfy the crowd. Make the wiki because you like Dark Forces and want to contribute something. I do like the idea of the wiki and would like to contribute, but as unreliable as I tend to be I don't want to make any promises. I am in the process of registering at least, so I'll be ready to contribute content when I'm not busy arguing with people. Razz

One other thing to remember is that you're actually bothering to do something. It's easy for people to complain. It's not so easy for people to do better. The content and tools that are available for Dark Forces came from people who bothered to do something. Dark Forces has been around for well over a decade. There has been plenty of time for other people to come up with the next big thing for Dark Forces, but most people never really tried. You're the first person to make a serious effort to start a Dark Forces wiki, and that trumps every so-called "better" idea that never begins the journey from "idea" to "reality". Unless someone else decides to make a wiki, yours is all we have. Just be patient and I'm sure it will pick up steam. Remember there aren't a whole lot of active members in the Dark Forces community at the moment, but if DarkXL becomes a success there is a real possibility that Dark Forces will see a resurgence in popularity.

Don't give up. There are already plenty of people who are capable of giving up. Don't be one of them. Wink

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 14, 2008 20:48    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

Yeah it is MediaWiki. Doh.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Fenwar
Admiral Ackbar
Admiral Ackbar

Joined: 15 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 15, 2008 07:16    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

If anyone wants to offer to help set up a wiki using alternative software, get in touch. (How easy would it be to export and re-import the work done so far, on both styles and content?)

Apart from that, as Klasodeth has rightly said: this wiki is there. That makes it infinitely better than the MediaWiki alternative. old skool razz

Weregoose - what do you mean about the 301? From the existing wiki to a new hosted one on DF-21, or from wiki.df-21.net to the existing wiki (still on wikidot's servers)?

[Edit] Oh, and I can't think of a better way than a wiki page to keep the latest info on how to Install DF on modern OSes up to date...

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 15, 2008 11:45    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Fenwar wrote:
(How easy would it be to export and re-import the work done so far, on both styles and content?)

It'd entail remaking the content from scratch, basically. But, there's not a whole lot of content yet. The styling would be the hardest part, seeing that the classes would have to be redone for a new layout. Plus, I'm also not sure about its flexibility: whether I can get it to look the same as it does now, I would have to figure that out once MediaWiki's implemented (if it will be).

Fenwar wrote:
Weregoose - what do you mean about the 301? From the existing wiki to a new hosted one on DF-21, or from wiki.df-21.net to the existing wiki (still on wikidot's servers)?

I can see the source of confusion: I messed up on the terminology—something that I feared would happen when writing that proposal, as the only variant of this I've done in the past was with a meta refresh tag. Rather than resorting to hit-and-miss with the explanation, my hope is that this article will make things clear. In brief, my suggestion is to point "wiki.df-21.net" to the Wikidot servers, while keeping the (sub-)domain liken to the former; it would serve as an alternative to installing the wiki software here, but going well under the assumption that we're not switching away from Wikidot (que sera, sera…).

Fenwar wrote:
I can't think of a better way than a wiki page to keep the latest info on how to Install DF on modern OSes up to date...

I'm still working on a framework for making the pages more accessible – building a skeleton on which to hang the actual meat. But even the most modest display of information can be refined later. I wouldn't mind in the slightest if someone were to throw in a lot of articles without warning. Smile

The MAZZTer
Death Star
Death Star

Joined: 25 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 15, 2008 14:47    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Reply with quote

Fenwar wrote:
Apart from that, as Klasodeth has rightly said: this wiki is there. That makes it infinitely better than the MediaWiki alternative. old skool razz



If you want to think about it from a maintenance work point of view, sure. Just keep in mind if we do it this way we have no control over what happens if they decide to discontinue the service, or start charging for it, or if they do server maintenance at odd times or they have a server crash and it takes them a while to restore it... or if they lose our content.

Just some things to keep in mind. I don't actually know how Wikidot specifically is on any of these things. I just like the idea of having more control over the software used and being able to host it locally, and tweak the source code if needed.

I'm gonna see how long it takes me to set up MediaWiki on my website (I already have it set up locally). I'll start... NOW (10:48a EST).

Done (11:00a)

I'm not suggesting we use my site, it'd be better to use the DF-21 server.

_________________
http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 15, 2008 16:08    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

I won't say this again: I'm not backtracking to another service. However, if you show me a DF-21–themed wiki with a number of pages, I'll start contributing to it instead.

Darth Oosha
Trandoshan

Joined: 24 Sep 2003

PostPosted: May 15, 2008 17:26    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

Fenwar wrote:
[Edit] Oh, and I can't think of a better way than a wiki page to keep the latest info on how to Install DF on modern OSes up to date...


A wiki page on a wiki people already know about and go to, like for example SWGames? Since you implied a question. MZZT has a point about the advantages of having the information hosted with DF-21, but that's not the only option.

klasodeth
Trandoshan

Joined: 03 Mar 2008

PostPosted: May 30, 2008 08:46    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked, but I did add intros for two more of the early missions. I'll see about typing up the mission briefings as well. At least the mission briefings should go pretty quick once I get around to doing them.

Weregoose
Gamorrean

Joined: 05 May 2008

PostPosted: May 30, 2008 21:18    Post subject: View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote

I threw some weapons pages together with a simple include and then revamped Secret Base with maps and an actual structure to work under. Take a look.

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