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Darth Oosha
Trandoshan
Joined: 24 Sep 2003
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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 Posted: Apr 04, 2008 03:27 Post subject: |
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Darth Oosha wrote:
...except nobody's currently writing a new editor? Also, review 13690 and 13723 regarding DarkXL being currently Windows-only.
Yeah, good point. I don't think anyone will write a new level editor or port DarkXL to Mac until the "Extended Version" is complete . . .
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klasodeth
Trandoshan
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 04, 2008 07:00 Post subject: |
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Darth Oosha wrote:
klasodeth wrote:
If someone really wants to create a level that is compatible with Dark Forces, the person creating the level should test with Dark Forces, not DarkXL.
That's a point. We certainly don't want to make things easy on prospective authors.
Well, testing with the wrong engine is exactly the way to make things difficult for a prospective modder. The idea of an editor that can gauge compatibility with Dark Forces is a pretty good idea, but no such feature ever ended up in WDFUSE. And being able to check within the editor is a lot better than making a level, running it in DarkXL to see if any warnings come up, and then load it in Dark Forces to see whether or not it really works. I don't see why testing in Dark Forces is such a difficult thing. If someone is planning to run a mod under the original release of Dark Forces, odds are that person will be running Dark Forces through an emulator, so testing the mod through Dark Forces in an emulator isn't such a horrible idea.
I'm all for making this stuff easier on the modder, but who's going to do it? There's no guarantee lucius will make or modify an editor for the task, and even if he does, that's probably not going to happen any time soon. If someone is willing AND able to make an editor that can toggle between Dark Forces and DarkXL compatibility, that would be great. Hopefully it won't take another decade for that to happen. But I don't think building a level analysis feature into DarkXL is the most practical way to do it.
How about this? If lucius is willing, what if he throws together a separate utility to check a level? It could be a simple tool that allows the user to select a mod. It then analyzes the mod and checks for features or conditions that would make the level incompatible with Dark Forces and outputs the specific problems to a file. That would be faster and more intuitive than having to actually load the game to get these details, and it avoids the need to implement all Dark Forces limitations as 'features'.
If anything more elaborate were to be done, I'd rather see an editor that immediatly highlights potential problems during the construction process than a mod analyzer built into the engine that won't detect problems until the mod author has already committed to a lot of work. Perhaps the author could choose a location in the level and have the editor dynamically calculate how close the author is to exceeding engine limits. That way the author can get a feel for what is possible and isn't possible in Dark Forces, and identify potential trouble spots long before actually crossing a threshold and receiving an error. Maybe individual sectors could start changing color as more and more portals become visible from that sector. I think these would be really useful features in an editor designed to be compatible with both Dark Forces and DarkXL.
But as a stopgap measure, I think a separate mod analysis utility is the best choice.
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Apr 04, 2008 22:05 Post subject: |
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Either way, DarkXL is far from finished. Maybe we shouldn't worry about new levels for it until it's done. That would make it easier on everyone. lucius is, after all, still only working on the demo.
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 05, 2008 00:37 Post subject: |
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As far as getting the physics right and everything in DF, I was thinking about making a TEST.GOB that pits the player in all situations such as:
-Appropriate jump height
-Appropriate crouch height
-Maximum jump distance
-Maximum height to cause death
you know, more like a calibration level if you will. I dunno, it might help, it might not. But it was just an idea I had to maybe help the process.
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Apr 05, 2008 01:13 Post subject: |
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Good idea . . . i think getting the physics right was one of the problems when lucius released the videos, this might help him a lot.
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Apr 07, 2008 21:30 Post subject: |
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Another question . . . in DF, you could mix logics to get unique enemies. Will the same combination of logics still have the same effect in DarkXL? If not, that could be a problem for some addon levels that use mixed logics . . .
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Apr 07, 2008 21:40 Post subject: |
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I setup the logic system so that each logic has it's own scripts, and that if an object has multiple logics then they are run in order. So theoretically you should still be able to mix logics even though the logics themselves are now scripted. For future mods making custom logics will probably be the way to go if backwards compatibility isn't a concern - which fortunately is really easy 
As for it producing the same effect as DF, the goal is to make the "core" logics behave just like DF, including when mixing them up. I'll test with mods that did this to make sure.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 07, 2008 22:37 Post subject: |
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I'll try and have a "calibration" level ready soon. I'm going to be having a busy week, but if I'm lucky and buckle down I could have one ready by Saturday or Sunday.
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Apr 07, 2008 22:45 Post subject: |
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I'll be releasing the first demo when it's ready but afterwards I'll be releasing a second demo, same level with missing features (such as inventory screen, VUEs, midi, etc), bug fixes and additional tweaks. So if you're level can't be used to tweak the values for the first demo, it'll be used shortly thereafter for the second demo. So in other words, do it when you can but don't worry about it too much
After the second demo, I think I'll have a new demo each time a new group of levels is fully functional - until everything is functional. So something like the first 5 levels for demo 3, maybe 10 for 4 and all of them for the final alpha. Or something like that...
The idea is to have the demos coming out often enough to see good progress and to help me test new features, enemies and weapons. And to work out the bugs as we go along instead of all at once near the end of the alpha.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 08, 2008 03:46 Post subject: |
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Cool, maybe I'll toy with the idea of an obstacle course. And it'll be a good way to get back into editing DF anyway, since I can't really edit on my mac anymore so I'll have to learn WDFUSE.
_________________
I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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klasodeth
Trandoshan
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 08, 2008 18:35 Post subject: |
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Hmm... I'm trying to think of all the things that need to be benchmarked. Here are some things to test:
-Movement Speed-
Running
Walking
Crouching
Running Crouching
Mid-air Running
Mid-air Walking
Mid-air Crouching
Mid-air Running Crouching
-Falling Distances-
Minimum Death Fall
Maximum No Death Fall
Maximum No Pain Fall
Minimum Pain Fall
Minimum Fall to trigger Scream
-Jump Distances-
Maximum Running Jump
Maximum Walking Jump
Maximum Crouching Jump
Maximum Running Crouching Jump
Maximum Running Jump Height
Maximum Walking Jump Height
Maximum Crouching Jump Height
Maximum Running Crouching Jump Height
-Clearances-
Minimum corridor width
Minimum corridor standing height
Minimum corridor crouching height
Can anyone think of other items to benchmark?
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 08, 2008 19:04 Post subject: |
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Thanks for those ideas too. I'll try and integrate as many as possible.
Also:
- Maximum run distance to clear a gap without jumping
- Appropriate stair heights (Which require to jump or may be scaled by just walking)
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 08, 2008 20:21 Post subject: |
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I was thinking about this while I was playing Doom earlier, but I noticed a lot of the AI was pretty close to what I saw in DF. So I think a lot of the AI could be replicated from some of the enemies from Doom and might save some time working on the AI.
Of course it would need some tinkering as well.
_________________
I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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klasodeth
Trandoshan
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 08, 2008 21:23 Post subject: |
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That's an interesting thought. Fortunately, one of the Dark Forces cheats displays enemies on the map, so it should be easy to study their movement even when the player can't actually see them. The same applies to Doom as I recall, so that should make comparison of the AI that much easier.
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BlazingPhoenix
Ree-Yees
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 08, 2008 23:08 Post subject: |
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Isn't DF a Doom clone anyway? I would assume that some things are similar. :S
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 00:05 Post subject: |
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There's lots of controversy surrounding that issue because there are indeed many similarities in gameplay and design. But DF's engine is far superior than that of Doom.
_________________
I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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BlazingPhoenix
Ree-Yees
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 00:30 Post subject: |
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You're right there, I guess it can be considered not a Doom clone, but IMO it still is to me and a very good one, too.
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klasodeth
Trandoshan
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 00:42 Post subject: |
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BlazingPhoenix wrote:
Isn't DF a Doom clone anyway? I would assume that some things are similar. :S
It's hard to take claims of Dark Forces being a Doom clone seriously. LucasArts implemented a huge list of features not available in Doom, to include an additional engine to handle the 3D models present in the game. Between that, sliding and rotating sectors, an inventory, headlight and nightvision, running water and moving conveyors, two sector heights, the whole INF system, projectiles that are affected by gravity, elevators with more than two stops, real objective-based gameplay support beyond finding up to three keycards and hitting the exit switch, cutscene support, secondary fire modes, automap that appears as a screen overlay, death from falling, enemies that actually stand still when they're not moving, support for destroyable walls and entities, as well as other gameplay features, I can't find any evidence that LucasArts would take the easy way out.
If they did, they sure put an awful lot of work into a stolen game, especially when one considers the levels are typically laid out in a way that makes some degree of sense, are much more varied than the levels in Doom, and all tie in to the story told within the game.
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 01:48 Post subject: |
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As for DF being a Doom clone, there are two ways to think about it (in my opinion the right way and the wrong way):
1) it was inspired by Doom, and has some similar technology and gameplay mechanics. By this logic Duke Nukem 3D, Marathon and many other games can be considered Doom clones.
2) it was a direct rip-off of the Doom source or was directly reverse engineered from Doom. This one is actually pretty funny 
Anyone can see that all the non-sector engine code was not from Doom (the 3DO renderer, VUE system, iMuse, cutscenes, inventory, etc.). It is also clear that the INF system was also original which would directly replace the hardcoded linedef/sector flags from Doom. Additionally sprites are also rendered a bit differently, they were much more flexible then Doom's sprites. At this point all we really have left is the world (sector) renderer itself and collision detection.
World (sector) renderer- Doom used a 2D BSP tree for sorting and splitting geometry. This means that in the original Doom engine, all wall geometry was static. This is why Doom didn't have moving or rotating sectors - it takes some interesting tricks to get this to work right. DF used a similar "portal" system as Duke Nukem 3D which allowed for much more dynamic level geometry and would have been a HUGE change from Doom's system. There's alot of other more minor differences in the renderers, stuff that wouldn't make any sense if they just did it the same way as Doom. As for collision detection, once you switch from the precomputed BSP and deal with portals this has to be greatly changed as well.
Anyway I could go on but the point is simple, if LA reverse engineered or stole Doom code for DF, then they changed it so much that I doubt it would be recognizable even if you did see it. I'm sure they looked at Doom alot and asked questions like "how are they doing that?", "should we handle feature X like Doom does?" Certainly DF was inspired by Doom but if they stole the code then they must have rewritten it all anyway In fact I'd say that the Jedi engine is far more similar to the Build engine then Doom's. And even then it still has features that Build didn't... (not counting more recent source-port changes)
Of course it occured to me that BlazingPhoenix might have been referring to option #1, in which then yes DF is considered a Doom clone.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 05:15 Post subject: |
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You just made more sense than anything I've read anywhere else. In which case, maybe checking out stuff from the Build engine would be better.
(Just been playing too much Doom lately methinks...)
_________________
I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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XDelusion
Ree-Yees
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 07:21 Post subject: |
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This is exactly what we've been needing!
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 22:21 Post subject: |
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lucius wrote:
For future mods making custom logics will probably be the way to go if backwards compatibility isn't a concern - which fortunately is really easy
So we'll be able to create our own unique enemies for new mods? I can't wait! Will these new "custom logics" be created in the level editor itself or with an external tool?
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The MAZZTer
Death Star
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 22:24 Post subject: |
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THEY'RE ALL WOLFENSTEIN 3D CLONES :O
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http://www.mzzt.net/ | I am a respectable admin with a respectable sig. |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 22:33 Post subject: |
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I've discussed it previously, but here is the jist of it:
All logics are currently defined in script files, which are loaded, parsed and compiled at runtime - which allows easy and fast changes with no more more work then simply editing a text file. Currently there is a CoreLogics file which contains all the "core DF logics." Modders will be able to specify their own script file which may add or override core behaviors.
There are a set of functions for each logic, for example Logic Storm1 has L_Storm1_Setup(), L_Storm1_Update, L_Storm1_AcceptMessage(), etc. When a logic is read from the level's ".O" file, it immediately creates the logic and attempts to link it to the properly named functions in the script file(s). If no function is found, then execution of that stage is simply skipped - which may be desirable. Not all logics need to implement all possible functionality.
So to put it simply, to create a new logic simply define a new name in the .O file, such as Logic: Storm2, and setup the functions for that logic in the script file. That's it. It literally takes seconds to add new logics if the functionality is simple
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Apr 09, 2008 22:45 Post subject: |
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Here's where I talked about it before, except it's completely done and working now. I've changed some of the quoted text to account for some minor changes. All my AI coding is in the Logic scripts. Some of the code has changed, but it should be enough to give you the idea.
lucius wrote:
There are several functions that may be implemented per-logic, only those that are needed have to be implemented:
| Code: |
/*Setup logic message masks, this determines which messages this logic is interested in.*/
void L_Storm1_SetupLogic()
{
//Example setup, from Storm1 logic.
Logic_AddMsgMask(MSG_NRML_DAMAGE);
Logic_AddMsgMask(MSG_MELEE_DAMAGE);
}
/*Setup the object that uses this logic, sets up HP,
object flags and other things*/
void L_Storm1_SetupObj()
{
//Example setup, partial listing from Storm1.
obj_HP = 30;
Obj_SetFlag(OFLAGS_COLLIDE_PLAYER);
Obj_SetFlag(OFLAGS_COLLIDE_PROJECTILE);
}
/*Main update, called every frame if object is activated or in an active sector*/
void L_Storm1_Update()
{
//Partial listing from Storm1, near the end.
//Most functionality is left out for space.
float ground_height = Map_GetFloorHeight();
if ( obj_loc_z > ground_height )
{
obj_loc_z -= 0.1f;
if ( obj_loc_z < ground_height )
{
obj_loc_z = ground_height;
}
Obj_UpdateLoc();
}
}
/*Messages that this logic can recieve. Includes things like damage and sound/player notifications.*/
void L_Storm1_SendMsg()
{
/*shows the general structure from Storm1, but the implementation is left out for space.*/
if ( obj_Alive == 1 )
{
switch (obj_uMsg)
{
case MSG_NRML_DAMAGE:
obj_HP -= msg_nVal;
if ( obj_HP <= 0 )
{
obj_HP = 0;
obj_Alive = 0;
//...more stuff...
}
else
{
//...state/anim stuff...
}
break;
case MSG_MELEE_DAMAGE:
//...similar to above...
break;
}
}
}
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This is the script code, which is parsed and compiled at runtime - so you'll be able to adjust scripts for logics then hit a button and have the game reload them, for iterative testing. Notice that each set of functions is self-contained, all the obj_XXX variables automatically refer to the object being processed, similarly all functions automatically refer to that object. So all you have to worry about is implementing these functions - of course there will be plenty of examples (all the core game logics) and I'll write a tutorial when it comes time for that.
_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 11, 2008 04:47 Post subject: |
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Neat
_________________
I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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Darth Oosha
Trandoshan
Joined: 24 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Apr 12, 2008 06:53 Post subject: |
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klasodeth wrote:
I'm all for making this stuff easier on the modder, but who's going to do it? There's no guarantee lucius will make or modify an editor for the task, and even if he does, that's probably not going to happen any time soon. If someone is willing AND able to make an editor that can toggle between Dark Forces and DarkXL compatibility, that would be great. Hopefully it won't take another decade for that to happen. But I don't think building a level analysis feature into DarkXL is the most practical way to do it.
I'm confused by this paragraph. First you're talking about how how an editor isn't going to happen soon, and then you're saying it's the more practical solution?
You also seem to be agreeing with the point I was trying to make, which was that there should be tools to help authors check the classic-DF compatibility of levels, and that just saying "they should test with Dark Forces" isn't the best solution.
klasodeth wrote:
How about this? If lucius is willing, what if he throws together a separate utility to check a level? It could be a simple tool that allows the user to select a mod. It then analyzes the mod and checks for features or conditions that would make the level incompatible with Dark Forces and outputs the specific problems to a file.
I agree that that could be useful (as I mentioned here), but I also think it's good for a level to have cooler visuals and more open areas at the cost of occasional non-serious HOMs from some angles. When making a level like that, being able to actually look around and decide whether the HOMs that show up are enough to bother you aesthetically is ideal (or so I'd imagine, having never tried it). Doing that in DarkXL would be easier than installing a Mac emulator and associated ROM image, operating system and Mac version of DF; and until it's possible in DXL, I think most casual authors will just test under DOSBox (accepting the harsher limits of DOS DF), or just give up on compatibility entirely and declare their levels to be Windows-only.
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klasodeth
Trandoshan
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Apr 12, 2008 11:58 Post subject: |
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Darth Oosha wrote:
klasodeth wrote:
I'm all for making this stuff easier on the modder, but who's going to do it? There's no guarantee lucius will make or modify an editor for the task, and even if he does, that's probably not going to happen any time soon. If someone is willing AND able to make an editor that can toggle between Dark Forces and DarkXL compatibility, that would be great. Hopefully it won't take another decade for that to happen. But I don't think building a level analysis feature into DarkXL is the most practical way to do it.
I'm confused by this paragraph. First you're talking about how how an editor isn't going to happen soon, and then you're saying it's the more practical solution?
There's no contradiction there. While I do believe that an editor with compatibility checking features is practical, I don't believe that it is likely. Unless someone creates an enhanced level editor, the practicality of such an editor is irrelevant. However, as unlikely as it is to have someone develop a new editor, I would still rather speak in favor of such an editor, than not say anything just because I don't think it will happen.
Quote:
You also seem to be agreeing with the point I was trying to make, which was that there should be tools to help authors check the classic-DF compatibility of levels, and that just saying "they should test with Dark Forces" isn't the best solution.
Yes, there should be tools for compatibility checking, but if such tools are unavailable and are likely to remain unavailable, the only reliable way to check compatibility is to run the level on the target platform. It may not be the best way to do things, but out of all the options currently available, it is the most practical solution. If tools for compatibility checking become available, testing on the target platform during the whole development process will no longer necessarily be the most practical solution, although it should be done at some point before release to catch any platform-specific bugs.
Unless compatibility utilities are released, there will only be two choices for testing. Test through DarkXL, or test with the DOS or Mac version through an emulator. If my goal is compatibility, I'd rather test with the original game engine than test with an engine designed to overcome the limitations of the original.
Quote:
klasodeth wrote:
How about this? If lucius is willing, what if he throws together a separate utility to check a level? It could be a simple tool that allows the user to select a mod. It then analyzes the mod and checks for features or conditions that would make the level incompatible with Dark Forces and outputs the specific problems to a file.
I agree that that could be useful (as I mentioned here), but I also think it's good for a level to have cooler visuals and more open areas at the cost of occasional non-serious HOMs from some angles. When making a level like that, being able to actually look around and decide whether the HOMs that show up are enough to bother you aesthetically is ideal (or so I'd imagine, having never tried it). Doing that in DarkXL would be easier than installing a Mac emulator and associated ROM image, operating system and Mac version of DF; and until it's possible in DXL, I think most casual authors will just test under DOSBox (accepting the harsher limits of DOS DF), or just give up on compatibility entirely and declare their levels to be Windows-only.
Checking in DarkXL certainly would be easier than trying to get the Mac version up and running, but that doesn't mean anything if DarkXL can't perfectly reproduce the Hall Of Mirrors effects. If it doesn't do it quite the same way or at the same time, a person could spend any amount of time trying to avoid disruptive Hall Of Mirrors effects within DarkXL, only to find that those same levels are full of HOM problems when played on the DOS or Mac versions of Dark Forces. Lucius already said that perfect HOM emulation would be difficult, so I'm not counting on DarkXL being a viable testing platform for DOS and Mac compatibility. When attempting to get software to work on a specific platform, there really is no substitute for testing on the target platform. There might be ways to avoid trial-and-error style testing via the use of compatibility tools, but with or without such tools, the level cannot be considered compatible until it is tested on the target platform.
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