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Patrick Haslow
Trandoshan
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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 Posted: Aug 11, 2008 01:06 Post subject: |
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I finally got DarkXL running on my iMac (bootcamp WinXP) and its really impressive. Kudos! I eagerly await the next build, as I want to capture FRAPS movies of The Dark Tide cutscenes. Thanks for all the hard work.
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 01:32 Post subject: |
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Maybe you could do Dark Tide 5 for DarkXL instead of JA? 
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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Patrick Haslow
Trandoshan
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 02:55 Post subject: |
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Sorry man, you know DT V isn't going to happen.. Besides, there are some issues with making the game fully 3d...adjoin trickery doesn't work right, skyboxes are often wonky (Talay, for example). Still I really enjoy this new engine. I laughed when I realized that I could see the extra life at the top of the SECBASE elevator shaft- something that wasn't meant to be seen.
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 03:04 Post subject: |
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I know...
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 05:47 Post subject: |
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Patrick Haslow wrote:
Sorry man, you know DT V isn't going to happen.. Besides, there are some issues with making the game fully 3d...adjoin trickery doesn't work right, skyboxes are often wonky (Talay, for example). Still I really enjoy this new engine. I laughed when I realized that I could see the extra life at the top of the SECBASE elevator shaft- something that wasn't meant to be seen.
By adjoin trickery, do you mean in levels like Perplexion? If so, that kind of adjoin trickery should work correctly in DarkXL - there are some issues at the moment but they will be fixed soon.
As for the skybox in Talay, believe it or not it still works when you look straight up - basically it clamps the scrolling so that it stops scrolling when you look up higher then you could in DF. It sounds weird but works suprisingly well. In addition for levels that use the extended features there will be better skybox options, I talk about this in another thread.
Anyway, thanks for the compliments on the engine.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 07:27 Post subject: |
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I have to get up really early this week (5am) for work.
Anyway the release may take a couple of extra days due to lack of time this week.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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Magic_Al
Gamorrean
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 22:40 Post subject: |
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Quote:
I'm intrigued at what your scenery may look like.
An early screenshot of the exterior ^^
or wait . . . wrong photo 
I wish I had the patience and skill to make something that realistic.
I have it mostly planned out already, but I haven't actually started, for a few different reasons. The sky around the mountain, obviously, will be very difficult to make realistic, unless I can use a massive 3do skybox. I also need to decide how the cliffs will work (whether or not the player can fall off, how to simulate slopes, things like that).
I'm still weighing the pros and cons of a large and complex exterior area . . . while it would be nice to see, the mountainous exterior is definitely not a main focus of the level (only the very beginning), and I don't want to expend all my creative energy on it.
Finally, I'm heavily considering adding a short shuttle-flight sequence to the beginning, similar to the one in Prelude to Harkov's Defection. Assuming I can pull it off It would obviously be wise to wait with the exterior until I know what I can and can't do.
I have two main worries about 3do skyboxes . . . first, will the sector's lighting affect the 3do in any negative ways? Second, if I use a single large 3do for the entire sky, will it display correctly from all angles and all sectors connected to it? (The second problem is probably solved by DarkXL, but I know it was a major bug in DF. Certain walls would obscure the entire 3do, even when they shouldn't have, and the 3do would show through certain other walls that should have obscured it.)
If you have any answers to my DarkXL questions, those would be greatly appreciated, I want to avoid any fatal errors in my planning 
Otherwise, if anyone has more questions or suggestions about the level itself, we should probably continue that conversation here to keep from cluttering the DarkXL forum.
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Magic_Al
Gamorrean
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 23:16 Post subject: |
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As Archimedes discovered, the surface area of a sphere equals the surface area of a cylinder whose height from the base to the top and the diameter of the base are the same as the diameter of the sphere.
In other words, it's possible create an apparent sphere without a 3DO by properly projecting the sphere's surface onto the 2D sky bitmap that forms a cylinder around the viewer in Dark Forces (and presumably a sphere in DarkXL). Viewed flat the bitmap would appear distorted on the top and bottom. There's probably an established procedure for doing this kind of thing, somewhere.
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----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche -----
http://homepage.mac.com/anewmanagn/magic_al/
Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of
Imperial methods, MagicAl prepares to go to lunch.... |
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 11, 2008 23:47 Post subject: |
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There's a script called Polarize in Gimp that I think might have something to do with it . . . I'll check it out once I have a computer that's actually capable of running Gimp
The distortion wasn't my main concern though . . . I don't think I've ever seen a DF level that contains one large 3do viewable from many smaller sectors. I'm worried that it could mess up in some unexpected way . . . it shouldn't cause any problems in DarkXL . . . of course, there's only one way to find out if it works
EDIT: This wouldn't work with the horizontal part of the sky, would it? Because my mountain exterior will be very open, on the side of the mountain . . . one side won't have any mountains blocking the sky texture or the side texture.
Thanks for the tip anyway, I'll put it to good use in the future.
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Aug 12, 2008 04:57 Post subject: |
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sheepandshepherd wrote:
lucius wrote:
I have to get up really early this week (5am) for work.
Anyway the release may take a couple of extra days due to lack of time this week.
Don't worry, I don't blame you. Judging by the vast amount of improvement included in this release, I'm surprised it's so close to finished already
I have a question . . . will very large textured 3do's be usable as skyboxes in non-extended mode DarkXL? Theoretically, there shouldn't be a problem with it, since DarkXL fixes DF's many 3do bugs, but I'm wondering if there's anything impractical about doing it . . . simply because I despise parallaxing, and using it would look especially ugly in the mountainous areas of my level . . . you brought that to mind when you mentioned looking straight up (or down) at skyboxes, which will probably happen quite a bit in the beginning of my level.
If it works in DF then it should work in DarkXL - otherwise I'll fix it. But if you use 3dos, you'll probably be better served with multiple 3dos so that DF isn't rendering everything at once. I think people have used 3dos for distant geometry facades in some Dark Forces levels.
If you're looking for a DarkXL specific feature though, it gets really easy due to the sky box camera. But that's an extended feature.
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 12, 2008 16:38 Post subject: |
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Ok, thanks . . . I'll probably stick with 3dos for the first chapter though, I'm hoping to have it done soon, probably before they skybox camera is supported
Using the skybox camera, will there be any way to simulate an endless ocean? I can probably easily do it with textured 3D scenery and a really large scale factor . . . I'm still wondering how well it will blend with actual water sectors underneath . . . but we'll see, I've still got a long time to decide.
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sweatervest
Ree-Yees
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 12, 2008 17:26 Post subject: |
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sheepandshepherd wrote:
Ok, thanks . . . I'll probably stick with 3dos for the first chapter though, I'm hoping to have it done soon, probably before they skybox camera is supported
Using the skybox camera, will there be any way to simulate an endless ocean? I can probably easily do it with textured 3D scenery and a really large scale factor . . . I'm still wondering how well it will blend with actual water sectors underneath . . . but we'll see, I've still got a long time to decide.
I remember a rendering program called Bryce 3D was able to do infinite planes, whether they be grass or water or what-not. It was useful because you could make a scene where the sky and the ground met at the horizon instead of needing to fill that empty space up with mountains or something. That would be a cool extended feature of DarkXL, though I don't how much it would actually be used. Maybe a special flag for a surface to be drawn all the way to the horizon or something like that.
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 12, 2008 17:49 Post subject: |
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Yes, that would be especially useful . . . maybe a problem for low-end graphics cards, but it would be nice. Simply using a texture to simulate an endless plane can be difficult when you also have an actual ground (or ocean). Besides, it will become ugly and noticeable with the ever-increasing high resolution of modern games. I'll go add it to the codeplex feature requests list.
EDIT: The [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryce_(software)]Wikipedia page[/url] on Bryce 3D and official homepage, in case anyone is interested.
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Magic_Al
Gamorrean
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 01:29 Post subject: |
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After reading some reviews of The Clone Wars, it's safe to say I'm looking forward to DarkXL for my next good Star Wars fix.
_________________
----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche -----
http://homepage.mac.com/anewmanagn/magic_al/
Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of
Imperial methods, MagicAl prepares to go to lunch.... |
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 02:20 Post subject: |
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As much of a Star Wars fan as I am, I personally will not be seeing Clone Wars. I think Star Wars was never meant to be seen that way.
Anikan Skywalker looks like a neanderthal and Obi Wan Kenobi looks like an Argonaut.
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 02:53 Post subject: |
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Yeah, I have to agree with you, BG. Star Wars is not in any way G-rated little kid stuff. I mean, even though I played Dark Forces as a little kid (seriously), it's just not meant to be that way. Other than DarkXL, I don't see any currently announced Star Wars material to look forward to. Then again, KOTOR3 would be nice . . .
EDIT: Haha, just imagine Star Wars expanding into the Horror genre
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 04:00 Post subject: |
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sheepandshepherd wrote:
Ok, thanks . . . I'll probably stick with 3dos for the first chapter though, I'm hoping to have it done soon, probably before they skybox camera is supported
Using the skybox camera, will there be any way to simulate an endless ocean? I can probably easily do it with textured 3D scenery and a really large scale factor . . . I'm still wondering how well it will blend with actual water sectors underneath . . . but we'll see, I've still got a long time to decide.
The engine could automatically build a large ground plane that is centered around the skybox camera. It probably won't be a single quad, due to z precision issues, but you wouldn't notice.
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klasodeth
Trandoshan
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 04:05 Post subject: |
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sheepandshepherd wrote:
EDIT: Haha, just imagine Star Wars expanding into the Horror genre
You mean it hasn't already? I thought the prequel trilogy was quite horrifying--well, two-thirds of it anyway. I haven't yet been able to bring myself to watch Episode III.
Otherwise, doing something horror-wise in the Star Wars universe ought to be pretty easy. There were some downright nasty critters in the Star Wars universe.
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 08:07 Post subject: |
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klasodeth wrote:
sheepandshepherd wrote:
EDIT: Haha, just imagine Star Wars expanding into the Horror genre
You mean it hasn't already? I thought the prequel trilogy was quite horrifying--well, two-thirds of it anyway. I haven't yet been able to bring myself to watch Episode III.
Otherwise, doing something horror-wise in the Star Wars universe ought to be pretty easy. There were some downright nasty critters in the Star Wars universe.
The Spice Spider on Kessel comes to mind...
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I don't think outside the box... I customize it. |
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sweatervest
Ree-Yees
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 12:20 Post subject: |
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klasodeth wrote:
sheepandshepherd wrote:
EDIT: Haha, just imagine Star Wars expanding into the Horror genre
You mean it hasn't already? I thought the prequel trilogy was quite horrifying--well, two-thirds of it anyway. I haven't yet been able to bring myself to watch Episode III.
Otherwise, doing something horror-wise in the Star Wars universe ought to be pretty easy. There were some downright nasty critters in the Star Wars universe.
I've been having gruesome nightmares about Jar Jar Binks ever since I saw the Phantom Menace.
By the way, despite what the first two espisodes would make you think, episode III is pretty damn cool.
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Aug 13, 2008 16:50 Post subject: |
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Republic Commando created a pretty jumpy environment on the abandoned Acclamator . . . maybe not horrifying, but close. Haha, speaking of Republic Commando, one of us should really implement a squad system in DarkXL sometime in the future
Ironfort also had a few good qualities of a horror-style level, after entering the installation, anyway . . . besides that, I haven't really seen many Star Wars levels meant to make you jump out of your shoes . . . but don't worry, I'm currently working on that problem 
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Gez
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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Burning Gundam
Kell Dragon
Joined: 28 Sep 2003
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Patrick Haslow
Trandoshan
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Aug 14, 2008 01:08 Post subject: |
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lucius wrote:
By adjoin trickery, do you mean in levels like Perplexion? If so, that kind of adjoin trickery should work correctly in DarkXL - there are some issues at the moment but they will be fixed soon.
As for the skybox in Talay, believe it or not it still works when you look straight up - basically it clamps the scrolling so that it stops scrolling when you look up higher then you could in DF. It sounds weird but works suprisingly well. In addition for levels that use the extended features there will be better skybox options, I talk about this in another thread.
Anyway, thanks for the compliments on the engine.
Huh, it looked like it wasn't doing that in the sky above SECBASE. I would have to see it in a level with a horizon sky texture to understand that.
I was also referring to elevator shafts where one doorway is above the other, but an adjoin happens to the lower of the two doorways as the elevator descends. In DarkXL, if the ceiling of the elevator shaft doesn't conceal the adjoin then you will see the adjoin switch happen while looking up. In the original engine, the limited simulation of looking up would have concealed the adjoin switch. Thats why I mentioned seeing the extra life in the top of that shaft in SECBASE...the old engine didn't let you see it, and the designers placed it there by design for that purpose.
I am not criticizing the DarkXL engine- its awesome. I am just pointing out differences. The texture antialiasing alone is great, mouselook is great (although it gives you a killer edge), but the full 3d allows for some things to work out differently than intended (perspective shifts on WAX enemies for one).
Which reminds me- are you going to alter the rendering of WAXes so that they are always displayed perpendicular to the point of view, or would that look bizarre?
...Still really psyched to see the next release!
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Aug 14, 2008 02:51 Post subject: |
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Patrick Haslow wrote:
Huh, it looked like it wasn't doing that in the sky above SECBASE. I would have to see it in a level with a horizon sky texture to understand that.
Well in the build you have it doesn't do the clamp properly. But it does in the build coming out, I had to implement it for Talay and Sewers.
Patrick Haslow wrote:
I was also referring to elevator shafts where one doorway is above the other, but an adjoin happens to the lower of the two doorways as the elevator descends. In DarkXL, if the ceiling of the elevator shaft doesn't conceal the adjoin then you will see the adjoin switch happen while looking up. In the original engine, the limited simulation of looking up would have concealed the adjoin switch. Thats why I mentioned seeing the extra life in the top of that shaft in SECBASE...the old engine didn't let you see it, and the designers placed it there by design for that purpose.
I am not criticizing the DarkXL engine- its awesome. I am just pointing out differences. The texture antialiasing alone is great, mouselook is great (although it gives you a killer edge), but the full 3d allows for some things to work out differently than intended (perspective shifts on WAX enemies for one).
Ok I understand. I'll do what I can to make sure things are rendered correctly. But you are right, there are some things that you'll be able to see like the extra life.
Patrick Haslow wrote:
Which reminds me- are you going to alter the rendering of WAXes so that they are always displayed perpendicular to the point of view, or would that look bizarre?
...Still really psyched to see the next release!
I don't think the WAXs will be rendered perpendicular to the point of view - it wouldn't look right with the environment and 3D model perspective.
Anyway thanks again for the comments.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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Gez
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Aug 14, 2008 06:56 Post subject: |
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In Dark Forces, as you look up at enemies they appear to remain standing - rather then orienting toward the camera. Under normal angles in DF levels, where you're looking up at enemies on a ledge (which happens quite often) - the sprites look much better "standing up" like they do now rather then facing the camera. But you are correct, certain angles will still look wrong, although I plan on implementing an interpolation eventually that should reduce the problem and keep it from being two extreme (like your example).
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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