DF-21 Forums

[Burning Gundam]

I'm proposing a project similar to DF-97 showcasing not only the new engine and editor, but the talents of the local editors, new or legendary. I think it would be a great way to kick off the new engine and breathe some life back to DF.

I dunno, I was just thinking about it earlier and thought it would be a pretty neat tribute to DF-97, this website, and to Dark Forces.

May be a crummy idea, but I think it'd be cool. Any thoughts?

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[lucius]

Sounds good to me.

Some suggested steps that people can start on today (if they decide this is a good idea):

*A nice Star Wars / Dark Forces story to tie all the levels together (needs one or more story writers).
*A selection of environments and level ideas that convey the story. Probably 14 levels.
*Level builders who take on each level, who work with the story writer(s) to iron out the specific mission objectives, iconic landmarks, and general theme of each level.
*Each level author makes the appropriate cutscene(s) [if any] and briefing - or assigns this to others.
*Finally each level author starts to build their levels in the DarkXL editor (which is hopefully usable by this point).
*A final awesome community mega-mod is put together with all the contributions.

Anyway, just some ideas to get the discussion going. I could help administer this thing if you want.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Burning Gundam]

I was thinking somewhere along 1 to 2 levels per author with a level not much larger than the average DF level.

Plot-wise, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of some rival to Kyle (If Kyle is used) as an antagonist, but to what purpose I'm not sure yet. Another doomsday weapon and save jan missions seem a bit cliche so I wanted to come up with a story that was unique and interesting.

Perhaps someone put a hit on Kyle and after narrowly escaping death must find out why someone is out to kill him.

I'll leave this totally open though, but those were my initial thoughts.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[Geoffrey S]

Perhaps the early days? First mission for the empire (raiding a pirate base?), followed by breaking out Jan and stealing the Crow? Could be followed by a campaign to acquire the first x-wings or something

[sheepandshepherd]

Ooooh, storylines, I like making those
I can think of a few random broad ideas we could integrate, some things that won't echo previous Star Wars storylines::

-Kyle could be investigating some outer-rim imperial test base in an uninhabited system. A crashed ship, lack of communications, or maybe something the imperials were testing out, is keeping him from leaving the system and returning to the rebels. All alone, he must fight for a way to escape. He could possibly meet some new race of aliens living in this system that help him escape. If that isn't long enough to encompass 14 missions, maybe Kyle could escape, inform the Rebels, and come back with their help to destroy the Imperials. As for what this device is that they're testing, I'd avoid a destroy-the-rebellion type weapon . . . something more like a massive shield or phase device that can isolate the entire star system (thereby trapping Kyle in it).

-We could involve pirates, Hutts, or some bounty hunter organization (the Black Sun is used a lot, I wouldn't suggest using it again). Maybe they're smuggling some kind of weapons, creatures, or diseases that become a major threat to the Rebellion (or New Republic). Or, maybe the player is one of these smugglers, and gets caught up in some larger plot involving the Rebels and the Empire.

-It'd be very interesting to involve Jedi, Sith, and the force, but that would be difficult in DF/DXL because of the lack of force powers and real lightsaber combat. If we do want to involve them, I'd definitely suggest as enemies only, not as the player. Maybe we could do something unexpected, like have the Empire rebuild General Grievous or imbue droids with the force or resurrect another ancient Sith (although that's really overused too . . .).

-Using a different character as the protagonist would allow for a lot more freedom, but somehow I don't think that's a good idea. It just doesn't seem like Dark Forces; imo, it'd be best to stick with Kyle in his Stormtrooper days, his Rebel days, or his New Republic mercenary days. It all depends on what kind of stories everyone comes up with for the protagonist to be involved in.

-Interesting thought though, what if we made the protagonist a droid? Since it's a data construct, the droid could change "bodies" during the course of the game, improving its weaponry and combat ability. We would change medpacks to repair kits and use some sound-editing program to make his voice metallic and artificial-sounding. It'd be interesting . . .

-Of course, we could combine the droid idea with a different storyline - maybe the Empire finds a way to transfer Kyle's conscience into a droid's body for a few levels. I'm sure that would be possible in DarkXL without using separate GOBs

-DarkXL will most likely allow us to use more than just 14 levels, and we probably won't even have to follow the naming format of DF (SECBASE, TALAY, SEWERS, etc). I think around 14 real, full levels is a good length for the mod, but I think it's also good to include a few shorter mini-levels in between the ~14 big ones, like DT3's droid level.


Anyway, they were just a few ideas that came up in my mind, tell me what you guys think.
We can always mix or change up our ideas. A project this big deserves a good solid backbone. Btw, if you haven't gathered as much, I think it's a really, really good idea.


As for time frame -- I'd assume that most of the people willing to work on this are probably already working on something else right now, especially the more experienced modders that still have the patient persistence to hang out here. Also, the new and relatively inexperienced modders, like me, probably want to spend a little more time practicing their skills before doing this. I doubt it'll be done quickly, even with the massive increase in ease of editing with DarkXL. Basically what I'm saying is that if there's no big level preference, the people that have less planned and more time to work on this might want to pick earlier levels.
Of course, first we have to come to a consensus about the storyline, the backbone of the mod; then we can start planning how to divide it up into levels and who will work on what

[lucius]

Obviously whatever story line is most popular and well fleshed out should be the one that gets used... However I have one favor to ask if I may...

I would ask that the story does not directly involve Jedi, Sith or force powers. Having a Jedi (or Sith) involved in the background, like Vader in Dark Forces is cool though. And Kyle should absolutely not be a Jedi or have force powers. I think the Jedi and force powers (along with resurrecting dead Sith, mystical weapons of great power somehow linked to the force, tombs with mystical artifacts, etc.) have been way overused in most Star Wars games. In Dark Forces, I liked playing the mercenary/smuggler Han Solo type - it made for a very grounded, yet cool Sci-fi experience. I like the idea of exploring the non-mystical side of the Star Wars universe - it's underutilized in modern Star Wars games and fiction.

Expanding on what Geoffrey S mentioned in his post:
An interesting story arc could be Kyle's early years working for the Empire and his defection to the Rebellion. What sort of missions could make a person like Kyle second guess his affiliations and switch sides? Think of Tie Fighter with all the Imperial propaganda, with a few within the Empire's ranks that begin to see the Empire for what it is.

"Finally we can end the rebellion and bring peace to the galaxy..."

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Tsophika]

[Burning Gundam]

Couple thoughts about this that I agree with Lucius on. Force powers and elements of Jedi, Sith, or whatnot should be limited or not used at all. Those should stay to Jedi Knight.

I don't think the Empire should be a very prominent element although it can be used as a background element (I like the early missions idea, though I believe this was done for MotS already).

I like the idea of a different organization being involved because it keeps things different. But personally, using Hutts as the main nemisis is kind of old. Perhaps some sort of "turf" war between two different species and/or planets (like that one Harkov campaign from TIE Fighter).

I think the best idea as far as stories go is (for those that have a good idea on hand) to create a poll thread on which story people would like to work with. After which there can be elements used from other ideas from said stories (to make everyone happy) and we can work from there.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[sweatervest]

As someone already mentioned I think a storyline about Kyle when he still worked for the Empire would be really cool. It could start off in the days between Episodes III and IV when the Empire is steadily transforming, and we could get the side of someone fighting for the empire... all the propoganda fed to the soldiers, Kyle feeling like he was serving the galaxy, maybe training courses held in the almost completed Death Star, rally speeches by Vader and the Emperor, and then have like one or two critical missions at the end where Kyle discovers the true nature of the Empire, maybe through some kind of deceit, like maybe they send him on a suicide mission or turn on him like they did on the Jedi, and then the ending cutscene would be Kyle approaching, um... that lady that runs the Rebellion, I can't remember her name, and asking what he can do to get revenge.

[C. Zoui]

FWIW from an outsider's perspective, it appears as though a full-fledged game is being proposed here. As a jaded denizen of the general gaming community, I am compelled to ask the following questions:

Depending on the level of support, can you really expect to finish this showcase game in anything less than several months?

Are the potential contributors really willing to commit the time and effort to see this through?

The corollary question is: will the release of DarkXL to the public be held up for the completion of this showcase?

Respectfully,

Brian

[Burning Gundam]

It's just supposed to be a community project and everything is subject to change at any point, it may not even get started at all. But I don't remember at any point in time it saying it was to be launched at the same time upon Dark XL's completion. Secondly, it was just an idea I had so absolutely nothing has been really decided at all.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[C. Zoui]

Save for the last question I asked, I'm not demanding answers. I thought by "kick off the new engine" you meant to showcase the new engine at the time of its release. I'm just suggesting things to keep in mind, albeit in the form of questions.

[lucius]

This proposal is similar to the community "mega-wads" you'll see started at DoomWorld and similar sites. These kinds of projects have been pulled off successfully in the past - and its a great way to get everyone in the community working toward a common goal while allowing everyone to excersize their creativity and personal talents. Sometimes people want to make levels, art or other contributions but don't simply because they lack direction and possibly motivation. If there is a tangible project where they can be part of something bigger then what they can accomplish on their own and be given some direction as to how to proceed - its much easier for them. For others its a way to showcase their talent and work with others. I think its a very healthy thing for a new or reviving community.

As for tying the projects together - I had no plans to change DarkXL's release based on this project. Why make people rush and make the project stressful? And I'd fully expect a large project like this to take a while - but this is unavoidable. What you need is to get the community involved, have Image of the Week contests, map layout showcases, progress reports and the like.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[C. Zoui]

If there is interest in depicting Kyle's exploits before DF in a prequel of sorts, I'd suggest checking out his backstory as it is told in the beginning of the DF manual. It's actually quite well put-together.

I haven't read any Star Wars stories since the mid-90s, but I can tell you that what they've done on those two pages is already better than 90% of Star Wars writing I've seen in terms of the general storyline. It focuses more on the human element of transformation via Katarn--the potential underpinning of a powerful story--and less on the same cliches of escapist sci-fi/fantasy fluff we've seen before. The events are described broadly enough for level and story authors to run wild with the details as they see fit, which is where the fun is, no?

And while these events have been covered in Soldier for the Empire, there is no reason why the game's truest fans cannot present their own take on this period of Katarn's life.

[Burning Gundam]

I apologize for not having been very specific in the beginning. What I meant by "kick off" was be one of the major projects made specifically for Dark XL, since more of the other levels being developed at the moment are more for the original (This also shows that I'm excited for the new features being implemented).

As far as plot goes if we are to do a prequel style series I agree with you, we'd have to follow the original storyline for Kyle very carefully and closely to make it plausible. The benefit though is that working on the story would just be a matter of fleshing it out a bit.

And I don't see why it would have to be 14 levels or more. DF-97 wasn't that big, but it was quite a big accomplishment. I see this project easily being done with as little as 5 to 8 levels. Having a smaller amount of levels means less time spent on filler. Though depending on how many people we actually eventually have come on board for this project, we may have more or less.

Even though I have 3 other projects, I would not mind taking part in this for 2 reasons.

- My other projects are being built specifically with the original engine in mind.

- I would like to build a small project that is a part of something bigger that is made specifically for DXL (That's why I proposed this project in the first place, and because the Open Project seems to have died off long ago).

Unfortunately, with as few people as there are here, I wouldn't be surprised if this never got started. So I'm not holding my breath here. But I say if there's enough people here who want to do it and commit a small portion to the cause, lets do it.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[klasodeth]

I think that's an excellent idea. I had thought about that myself, but I have no idea where my Dark Forces manual is floating about these days, and apparently some retconning of the backstory was done in the later games. I'd really like to see more discussion about a mod that focuses on Kyle's backstory.

[lucius]

Well I like to personally test everything I make, so if this project gets off the ground I'll probably build a level for this myself. If nothing else it'd be a way for me to showcase how the new engine features can be used in a real level environment. Plus I'm usually too busy coding things to make actual content - which is a nice break every once in a while. Also if I find anything bothersome or annoying when using the tools, I will just go in and fix them - which will make the tools nicer for everyone.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Magic_Al]

Ah, DF-97. That was epic.

I know everybody knows how to find these, but here are the two best Kyle backstory links, just for handy reference.

canonical:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/kylekatarn/index.html

consensus:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyle_Katarn

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----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche -----
http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://homepage.mac.com/anewmanagn/magic_al/

Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of
Imperial methods, MagicAl prepares to go to lunch....

[Jackson]

I don't have much to add to the conversation -- so much has been said, and I'm sleepy! -- but speaking of DF96, re-reading the Crow's Nest review (98%!) got me pretty pumped to play this set again! Probably won't be until the weekend that I'll have a chance to, though...

The official DF96 site is gone now -- as of a few days ago -- but its earlier incarnations still mostly intact over at archive.org.

[Burning Gundam]

I knew something wasn't right when I was talking about this...


...It should be DF96, not DF97...

My bad guys.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[Taton]

I really like the idea of a new Dark Forces Project celebrating Dark XL. If it sticks to the Soldier of the Empire story, it would be cool to see Kyle raiding the Asteroid Base, maybe incorporating basic allies and such. Even, doing a new prelude story ala Dark Prelude or Birth of a Mercenary would be cool as well. Having a robotic Rancor would be awesome.

I would love to make maps for this project. My individual motivation is lacking, but I get pretty darn motivated on large group projects.

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"A fight should be clean and elegant, without waste"
-Asuka Langley Sohryu, Evangelion

[Burning Gundam]

Anybody come up with some good ideas yet?

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[Magic_Al]

How about an entire series where you play as Jan through a story that's interwoven with Kyle's? It could be part prequel and part side-quel to DF covering the period from Soldier for the Empire through DF from Jan's point of view. Obviously she's not sitting in the cockpit the whole time but does her own FPS-type missions between rendezvous with Kyle.

An example of how it could intersect with DF would be a level set immediately after Kyle opens Jan's prison cell on Jabba's ship. They try to leave together but trouble separates them before they get off the ship and Jan has to make her own way back to Kyle and the Crow. Another level would be a companion to DF's Ramsees Hed: Kyle has placed the tracking device but then gets trapped, and Jan has to get to him. Other levels could be completely original and Jan might even progress through two or three missions before intersecting with Kyle again.

Done right it would add a layer to the DF story that you'd think about even while playing original DF missions, sort of like how you can't help but think of the prequel movies during parts of the original trilogy.

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----- MagicAl`s DARK FORCES Niche -----
http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://homepage.mac.com/anewmanagn/magic_al/

Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of
Imperial methods, MagicAl prepares to go to lunch....

[lucius]

I have a proposal, in order to get some momentum behind this thing. Some creative people, I don't care who you are, come up with a few of proposals. These should include story summary (or rough sketch would be fine for now) and some rough idea of the missions and locals involved. Once we get 3 or 4 ideas - more would be great too! - I'll hold a community poll were we can decide on a direction. At this point I'll organize a session where we start to fill in the story and outline the actual missions.

Anyway let's get started before planning too far ahead. First step, start submitting those proposals.

Here's a possible layout (this is just an example):

[Proposal]
Name: Defection

Story summary: The starts in Kyle's early years, working for the empire. As the first couple of mission unfold, Kyle becomes increasingly disillusioned with the empire. We play through the events that cause Kyle to leave the Empire and begin working for the rebellion. The early missions can present an interesting view from the Empire's point of view with the Imperial propaganda - think Tie Fighter. And see as Kyle understands what is really behind the propaganda and lies - betrayed by the Empire he becomes one of its worst enemies.

Possible environments & missions: Environments can include Imperial bases and starships, interesting towns and planetside environments that the Empire operate in. Then we move over to Rebel bases and settlements and mercenary hangouts. You can include a sequence of missions if you want at this point, but its not required. This can be worked on more later.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[klasodeth]

[Proposal]

Name: Rogue StormTrooper

Story summary: You are an Imperial StormTrooper stationed on a remote planet. After witnessing continuing Imperial atrocities at a nearby city, you make the decision to defect to the Rebellion. After saving innocent civilians by killing the rest of your squad, you return to your base to destroy it. You flee to a nearby community to find passage off-planet, while avoiding StormTrooper squads sent to neutralize you. After escaping from the planet either by stealing a ship or by performing favors in exchange for passsage, you travel to another planet to attempt to contact the Rebellion.

After dealing with Imperials and/or mercenaries, you eventually locate a Rebel contact who wants you to prove your loyalty. After proving yourself by attacking a local Imperial facility, you go on another mission to recover or repair the Rebel agent's ship, which is carrying supplies vital to Rebel operations in the area. Once you recover the agent's craft, the two of you leave the planet to meet with local Rebel leadership.

The higher Rebel officials already have a mission planned for you. They want you to use your Imperial knowledge and access to help engineer the escape of several imprisoned Rebels who have been sentenced to death at a high-security Imperial outpost. After fighting Imperial patrols and perhaps the hostile natives/wildlife, you penetrate the outer defenses and fight your way inside to rescue the Rebel prisoners. After rescuing the prisoners, either you steal an Imperial transport or you clear a landing zone for a Rebel transport which arrives to extract you and the prisoners. Upon your return, a celebration is thrown in your honor. Congratulations, you're an official member of the Rebellion!

Possible environments & missions: There are a lot of possibilities for mixing levels here. The story could start in a local community where the player witnesses Imperial atrocities and decides right then and there to turn rogue. From there the player fights inside an imperial base, then moves to an outdoor environment leading to a large community. Fighting could occur in back alleys or in a spaceport depending on how the player acquires off-planet passage.

Once off-planet, the player could find himself in either a major city or a backwater town. During the course of locating a Rebel agent, the player might find himself fighting in back alleys and generally dealing with the seedier elements of the area. The mission proposed by the agent marks a return to Imperial architecture. This could be anything Imperial, provided it is not a prison or anything too similar to the Imperial base attacked earlier. Recovering the Rebel agent's craft could involve remote areas teeming with dangerous wildlife, a secured impound lot at the local spaceport, or breaking into a factory or warehouse to locate an important part. This all depends on whether or not the ship was seized or damaged. With this done, the player and the Rebel agent leave the planet.

The mission to rescue the Rebel prisoners can start in the wilderness surrounding a remote Imperial prison. Once inside, the player fights through an Imperial prison to locate the prisoners. Upon locating them, it is necessary to disable the outer defenses. With that done the player goes back outside either to clear a landing zone for a Rebel transport, or enters a moderately-sized craft to clear it out so that the player and the Rebels can steal it to make their escape.

Outdoor environments can be anything that is interesting and unique. They do not call for specific environments and ideally should NOT involve well known planets such as Tatooine, Hoth, or Endor. Ideally outdoor environments should seem new. For instance, cold environments should have enough foliage to suggest winter, not perpetual cold. Hot, dry environments should incorporate water, much as Egyptian civilization relied on the Nile. Lush environments should depict plants previously not seen. Fruit-bearing plants with strange, exotic fruit, as well as plants with unusually colored leaves, would be useful to depict an alien environment and to avoid excessive use of green.

[lucius]

That's 2 potential proposals. Magic Al, do you want to make a proposal out of your idea? Any other ideas are welcome.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Burning Gundam]

I had an idea when I proposed it but I can't remember what it was. If I remember it I'll post it. Otherwise, I'm double on Lucius's idea.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[klasodeth]

Did it have anything to do with this?

[Burning Gundam]

Yeah, but I can't remember what it was that I wanted to do with that plot. I was watching a lot of the Noir anime when I thought up the idea. I just can't think of how well it would flesh out in a game. I might give it some thought, but it appears a prequel would be better suited since it seems to be the more popular option at the moment.

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I don't think outside the box... I customize it.

[lucius]