DF-21 Forums

[joel96]

There's a lot of silly things in Dark Forces that kept Kyle Katarn from passing as canon initially. The first one being that it is a video game, made in the early 90s. It's a game of its time, so it isn't exactly cinematic in execution.

One of the weirdest is the concept of the extra life. I guess it could be explained away- like Kyle never died. But how then would you explain all the bonuses Kyle found or the dozens of dead stormtroopers, or the secrets collected already in Kyle's inventory? It's a video game. Just remember that. It doesn't need to be explained away if you take it for what it is and appreciate the medium as a valid expression of story.

Or...you could obsess over how every detail of the game can be rationalized into canonization. How could you think of anything else? And you call yourself a fanboy...

Let's start with the extra life thing. You've got I think five lives to start out with on Hard. How does Kyle return to the starting point, resuscitated to 100% health (and with no shields), with no ship in sight, with no rescuer in sight, and with whatever ammo and inventory he has when he first dies?

My only guess is that Kyle is somehow dragged away by secret underground stealth forces, given the breath of life, and then left to fend for himself in dangerous hostile territory. How they get him out of the same places that killed him in the first place is beyond me.

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Yes, I am that joeybuddy96.

[The MAZZTer]

Huh? Did you mean to post this as a reply to something else?

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[Burning Gundam]

I'm wondering the same thing

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[Magic_Al]

Dark Forces doesn't present any issues to "canonization" that newer games don't have. The trick is to separate obvious gameplay mechanics from story. The story is canon, the mechanics of a video game are not. The story is not to be taken literally from the mechanics of gameplay but rather it should be interpreted as though the game is based on an unseen movie chapter of Star Wars, that is the basis of the story for canon purposes.

That's just my two cents. I'm sure Lucasfilm has written policy somewhere that handles this.

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Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of
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[joel96]

Nice post, Magic. Games have gotten better with putting mechanics to the side. It's like a story interpreted with the help of a tool, that of the game. The mechanics don't always fit in with the story and should be regarded as a separate element that should not affect story.

I think it's best to avoid RPing with this game, because not everything in it fits in with it. That said, you could rationalize a lot of the mechanics to a certain extent, as long as you ignore the parts that could disrupt the story.

For example, I can think of several ways to react to the extra life:
1. "Hey, an extra life! Now if I die I'll come back to life to kick more Imperial butt!"
2. "Hmm. An Emergency eXtration Transport Recuperation And Lift Into Field Entrance. I should keep this with the other four in case I run into trouble." (Can you think of a better acronym?)
3. "Ha, this rescue beacon is worth a fortune. No wonder the Imps kept it guarded so heavily. I'll fence this thing after the mission. The Mouldy Crow doesn't pay for itself."

1 completely ignoring story in favor of mechanics, 2 gives a nod to the mechanics while staying in character, and 3 largely ignores mechanics in favor of story, canon, and story.

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[The MAZZTer]

Eh, Dark Forces was made back in a time when fun gameplay was more important than realism. Yahtzee rambles on for a bit about this in his latest Zero Punctuation video.

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[Barry Brien]

[The MAZZTer]

Games had an excuse to skimp on storyline in the gold ol' days due to limited development time, resources, and hardware. Now we have tons of all of them, there's no excuse to make a game lacking in either story or gameplay... I think that's the idea, at least.

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[Pumpkinetics]

I remember reading a DF fanfic once that tried to explain extra lives in a story context, that being that it was Kyle's light side trying to patch him up at a key moment. But then that fanfic took a lot of liberties with the story otherwise.

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[darktrooper27]

In my mind, the story as a whole is supposed to be like a movie. With the gameplay mechanics ignored to a certain extent like the extra lives, and other silly nonsense.
With the case of Dark Forces, I just imagine that Kyle is a super BA commando/spy who can take on half the Imperial Army and still come out relatively unscathed.
Imagine, that there is no death, no lives, no healthbar. He is just that good to be able to complete his missions.
The same goes for any other game too. The hero is not going to die in the story.

Movies are made with a tad bit more realism to them than video games are. Not that movies are realistic, but when a film is made and they have action scenes. The good guy either ducks and hides behind everything he can without being seen. Or he is being chased and shot at by tons of badguys and never manages to get hit once.

James Bond films are a good example.

Anyway, that's my two cents for the night.

[klasodeth]

There is no point in attempting to canonize game mechanics. Otherwise, it introduces all sorts of difficult questions.

For instance, why does Kyle Katarn have access to these extra life things, but not other heroes from the Star Wars universe? How come Kyle Katarn is the only character in the Star Wars universe who uses shield packs? For that matter, why are shield packs so plentiful everywhere Kyle Katarn goes, no matter how odd the location? How can Kyle hold more weapons than even the Doom guy? Why do weapons used by Kyle fire at a different rate than those used by anyone else? Why do weapon supercharges work on all weapons in Kyle's inventory simultaneously, and why doesn't anyone else use them? Why do Imperial Stormtroopers keep all their blasters nearly empty, even ones that have not been issued or used in combat?

I'm sure there are a lot more questions where those came from. In order to keep a game from being frustrating, developers frequently have to sacrifice plausibility for the sake of fun. I don't think those creative liberties should become an official part of any fiction.

[The MAZZTer]

How come health packs work on any and all wounds? How come Kyle seems to suffer no ill effects when close to death? (Other than death when damaged, of course.) How come Storm Troopers always have the same amount of ammo left in their guns when you kill them, and why do they never run out? Why is the amount of ammo you can carry for any gun such an even number? How come carrying more weapons doesn't bog you down? Why do commandos take more shots than Storm Troopers despite having no helmets to protect their faces? Why do the Death Star plans take the form of a circuit board? Why do flashlights still use double-as in the future? Why do mousebots? How can that stupid detention center platform that moves you across that chasm possibly work?

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[nik0tine]

I was under the impression this actually was explained in Dark Forces 2 Jedi Knight. In other words, Katarn had force powers that he did not yet know about and thus was able to kick alot of imperial butt without actually dying.


With that said, I've always felt that the story in Jedi Knight was really lame. Katarn will always be a mercenary to me.

[Burning Gundam]

[Barry Brien]

How is Kyle able to kill Kell Dragons with his bare hands?
Why do some enemies wander back and forth only occasionally firing at you?
Why does Boba Fett die, or if he doesn't how is he still alive?
How come there are no Mon Calamari corpses in Talay? Why does Moff Rebus not shoot at you with his huge gun?
Why do enemies often kill each other when trying to kill you?
Why are all the mountains and rock formations on Danuta, Fest, Gromas, Orinackra and Anteevy all perfectly vertical?
Why do all Grans/Trandoshans/Gamorreans dress the same, use the same weapons, make the same noises?
Why are the engines of the Crow not attached to its body, or the wings of the Imperial Shuttle attached either?
How could the Fusion cutter be used to cut anything? How are the stormtroopers in the toilet in Ramsees Hed urinating?
Rom Mohc makes allusions to having fought in the Clone Wars. He says "its been a long time since I challenged a man to battle" - if he fought in the Clone Wars he only ever fought against droids.
How come you can't collect ammo off an officer with a key or a code when they are clearly carrying guns too?
Why does this physically impossible feature exist in Jabba's Ship? (X: 0408 Y: -3.0 Z: 0804 and face 135 degrees to see what I'm talking about)

[Barry Brien]

Why is the final boss so easy? (I'm talking about the enemy you fight after Mohc)

[Nottheking]

Lemme try to address some of those questions, BB:

• How is Kyle able to kill Kell Dragons with his bare hands?
  He must have a bit of Chuck Norris in him. Only in his hands, rather than his feet.
  
• Why do some enemies wander back and forth only occasionally firing at you?
  The Empire doesn't pay them well enough.
  
• Why does Boba Fett die, or if he doesn't how is he still alive?
  He survived in the very manner that Arthur Dent knew that he couldn't possibly die before Stavro Romula Beta.
  
• How come there are no Mon Calamari corpses in Talay?
  The Imperials enjoyed them already. Along with a good amount of fine wine.
  
• Why does Moff Rebus not shoot at you with his huge gun?
  It's Moff Rebus, so I think we all know the answer to THAT one...
  
• Why are all the mountains and rock formations on Danuta, Fest, Gromas, Orinackra and Anteevy all perfectly vertical?
  Very expert (and expensive) land-forming done by the Imperials. (notice the presence of large Imperial bases/facilities on all those worlds?)
  
• How could the Fusion cutter be used to cut anything?
  Oh, I'm sure it can cut payroll costs pretty easily.
  
• How are the stormtroopers in the toilet in Ramsees Hed urinating?
  They aren't; they just wish they didn't have the armor stopping them. Trust me; you should be VERY glad you can't smell that room.
  
• Rom Mohc makes allusions to having fought in the Clone Wars. He says "its been a long time since I challenged a man to battle" - if he fought in the Clone Wars he only ever fought against droids.
  Hey, that's not phrased as a question!
  
• How come you can't collect ammo off an officer with a key or a code when they are clearly carrying guns too?
  For that matter, why do Imperial Officers drop MAGAZINES, rather than guns?
  
• Why does this physically impossible feature exist in Jabba's Ship? (X: 0408 Y: -3.0 Z: 0804 and face 135 degrees to see what I'm talking about)
  Jabba always WAS one for the extravagant. And apparently the impossible. His stairs are no exception.
  
• Why is the final boss so easy? (I'm talking about the enemy you fight after Mohc)
  He totally wasn't expecting the player.

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