DF-21 Forums

[lucius]

I noticed that early in the project some people had some ideas for feature requests. But back then some people were afraid that the project would never go anywhere (this was before the first alpha demo) and thus the feature discussions pretty much stopped. Anyway I'd like to start another thread were people can discuss possible feature requests for DarkXL and the editor. Ultimately once a feature is determined to be worthwhile after discussing it, it should be added to the issue tracker.

So here we go:
What features do you think would be cool for DarkXL? We want to stick to things that maintain the spirit of Dark Forces, of course. An example would be the dynamic lighting - it adds atmosphere to the original game and makes it look more modern without making it look like another game.

Also what features do you think would make the editor better or easy to use? Since the editor is still incomplete, suggestions could be implemented earlier. I realize that no one has used the editor yet so suggestions may be limited, although there is still plenty of opportunity, but this topic will be around after the next builds too.

Remember this is for discussion only right now, no promises are being made - but I want give people who have any ideas a place to discuss them. Also if you want to show examples from other games, engines or editors - feel free.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[sheepandshepherd]

I have a few things I've been thinking about.
Eventually, modders will be able to use a complex scripting system to make unique things happen in their levels. One useful thing would be the ability to implement new weapons, items, or abilities with these scripts that the player will then assign to a key upon starting the mod. Then, whenever the player presses the key, either the weapon will be selected like any of the original weapons, or the ability or item will be used. That would open up a lot of possibilities . . .

I think you've already mentioned that scripting will contain math functions and if-then statements. Also, strings and variables in scripts would be pretty useful, including special "global" variables that will stay set throughout all levels in the mod, allowing for some neat RPG-style mods or puzzles.

In general, there are a lot of powerful functions in Oblivion's scripting engine, so if you own the game, you might want to look at it. A few that I can think of now are killing, resurrecting, moving, copying, or modifying an NPC's attributes in-game. Also, Oblivion can give names to any objects, like DF's named sectors, in order to affect them with scripts. It can freeze the player's controls, add or remove inventory items, lock/unlock doors . . . lots of useful stuff

Last one now: images or effects that can be laid over the player's view with scripts. Examples would be text transmissions, video feeds in the hud, blood dripping down after a severe injury, etc.

That's all I can think of right now. Vehicles and multiplayer would be nice, but that might be a little too far into the future

[lucius]

Thanks sheepandshepherd. A lot of the stuff you mentioned is already in or planned. For example, there will be weapon scripts which would allow you to implement your new weapons/items/abilities. And the script system already supports strings and variables - in the DarkXL directory open the "CoreLogics.as" file in notepad (or other text editor) to get an idea of what is already implemented in scripts. Some of the logics are still in code, but most are already scripted and eventually they all will be. In addition there will be "level" scripts and "global" scripts to handle level specific functionality and overall mod functionality respectively. Anyway thanks for the suggestions and you'll be happy to know that all of that is either already implemented or coming soon.

(come to think of it, with some minor additions that I plan on doing anyway - you could actually script your own vehicles if you want to)

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Gez]

- A "hub" functionality for levels
- A simple dialogue system
- Friendly actors

With those things, it would be possible to go back to your base, get patched up by a medical droid, get an ammo refill, then chat up with friendly NPCs in order to get your in-game briefing for the next mission...

[lucius]

Friendly actors can be implement using logic scripts. A dialog system and hub system sound very interesting. You could make a mod with optional missions or make the mission progression less linear (possibilities like branching missions).

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[sheepandshepherd]

A hub functionality combined with a global objectives script would make for a nice mercenary mod, with each level a separate contract, like one of the suggestions for the DF-21 project. Depending on how saved games will be treated, it may be a useful feature to allow the player to leave a level without completing it, store its progress, and return him to the hub level. This could be done either from the pause menu or limited to a specific door or trigger object in the current level.

Of course, I don't know yet how saved games in DXL will work. Implementing a modern "save anywhere anytime" system would be useful for larger or more complex mods, but it would defeat the purpose of extra lives in existing levels and in the original DF missions.

Maybe the modder could decide for himself how games could be saved? A script to save the game could then be either built into the pause menu or just be activated at specific "checkpoint" locations in the level, depending on the maker's decision. What do you guys think?

[lucius]

Interesting ideas. Right now the save functionality works like in DF, where it saves your progress once a level is complete (life, shields, items, weapons, etc.) and then the game loads that progress when entering into the next level. However I'm open to other "extended" save options - having the mod author choose is a pretty good idea. That way if they choose checkpoint saves, for example, and extra lives are useless - well that's ok, the mod author just needs to avoid placing extra lives in their levels.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Tsophika]

Point-and-click VUE creation.

Create a tool that can place dummy objects within the world that will provide a path constraint to a targeted .3DO. At each point the 3DO can be given attributes such as speed and rotation. An alternative would be the ability to keyframe 3DOs, but that technique might be not be preferred as you would have to incorporate a time scrubber into the editor.

[Burning Gundam]

[lucius]

Good idea. The plan is to allow the VUEs to be setup and previewed right in the level. I was planning on setting up keyframes so that the data is fully compatible with Dark Forces. Thanks for the suggestions - even if I'm already planning on them, if I know you guys want the features then I know if my priorities are right. More are welcome.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Jimmy Chicken]

I'm know you've already seen my old post, but it still has a lot of suggestions anyway.

http://df-21.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php_t=197

_________________
"if you see a wall with the blast marks DF 21 shot into it, I was there"

[lucius]

Yes I remember that thread now. Anyway instead of wading through all of those suggestions made by several people - maybe you guys can post a condensed list here so that it can be discussed. Some of the features requested there just don't make sense anymore - because they're already implemented. For example - true color, hardware acceleration, no homing, etc.

Which of these features do people want the most? Which features would be most useful?

Anyway thanks for all the suggestions so far. To help out I'll port over some of those suggestions Jimmy Chicken made, removing the ones that are already promised (such as dual adjoins) or already implemented (things that can be scripted through logic scripts)- if there are others that people still want feel free to list them.

Here is Jimmy Chicken's shortened list (all other features are already promised or could be implemented by modders using already existing or promised features). My comments are in brackets [].

*Delete Extra Lives and implant a Save and Loading system. [Discussed before, what kind of save systems do people want? Should an optional checkpoint save or save everywhere system be implemented even for standard levels?]
*Let you fly ships. [with a freeform skybox camera, 3D skybox and logic scripts that can take player controls - this could be scripted soon]
* Real Underwater [good suggestion I think, this will fit in with the vertical adjoins extended feature]
* Real Zero Gravity. [per-sector gravity is planned allowing varying gravity, negative gravity and zero gravity - things like ladders will be easy with this. This is how ladders were implemented in Outlaws]
* Stun setting as the blaster and blaster pistols secondary Fire. [this will be implementable using logic scripts and weapon scripts]
* Curves. [interesting idea]
* Real Platforms without using 3DO's. [using dual adjoins and vertical adjoins this should be possible]
* Fog, raining, and snowing feature. (Sector Flag) [true fog is planned, but raining and snowing are new. How do you guys feel about snow and rain as automatic features? Would generic particle system support be better?]

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[sheepandshepherd]

My comments:
*If you implement saving as a script function, modders can either link it to the pause menu or to "checkpoint" locations, as mentioned before. That would cover all the possibilities, though I still think a "save anywhere" feature like in most newer games would be the next best choice.

*Fog and other weather effects could be a script that can be customized depending on what exactly the modder wants in the level, and then there could be a sector flag to enable default rain/snow settings, like the simple door flag.

*How would stun settings work exactly, by knocking the target unconscious? This would be an interesting feature for stealth missions, but it might be a little complicated, since we'd have to add new WAX frames. Alternately, it could be, for example, a taser-like electric effect that just immobilizes the target and keeps it from firing or detecting the player.

*Outlaws used negative gravity? I had no idea Really good idea though . . . maybe instead, you could have just a gravity strength and direction, allowing for even more strange rooms But then, how would we handle view constraints in different-gravity areas? Would they be rotated relative to the "down" direction? And how would DXL handle falling through an adjoin into a sector with different gravity "direction"?

I may skim through the other topics later to add feature requests in a more organized fashion if that's what you want. In the mean time though, I gotta do some homework

[lucius]

For stun, the script controls frames the wax is currently playing - so the logic script could make the enemy inactive for some amount of time and cause it to show whatever animation you want. Or it could knock them down like a punch and then they stay down for some amount of time. Basically the weapon script can send a message to an object once it's hit - with some value passed by the projectile - and then it's up to the logic script to handle that message however it sees fit. Of course even projectiles have logics, so you could make a gun that fires stormtroopers if you want You can make a weapon that fires energy balls that bounce off the walls and then bounce an enemy 10 feet in the air when they hit... Weird examples of stuff you'd never really want to do, but it should illustrate my point.

So basically weapons will have their own script to determine how they act - firing rate, animation on screen, reticles, which projectiles to fire, etc. Projectiles use logic scripts and of course enemies use logic scripts. So you should be able to script all the various interactions between them. You could implement wave beams, freeze rays, shrink rays, solid beam lasers, stun weapons and so on.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Jimmy Chicken]

Thanks for the commenting on my list lucius.

I figure zero gravity could be used in a couple places, such as in outer space (think condition red except when you go outside, you can actually "float," "jump," and "hover.") Or, it could be used underwater, for swimming.

When I suggested curves, I was going for something like bezier curves. You CAN do decent looking curves just by placing a bunch a vertices in the right pattern, however, realistic looking curves for walls, floors, and ceilings, would add a hint of realism to the game.

It really doesn't matter to me how you choose to implement these features. Real water was something that always interested me.

_________________
"if you see a wall with the blast marks DF 21 shot into it, I was there"

[lucius]

Water you can swim in (or "deep water") was implemented in the Jedi engine for Outlaws. It uses vertical adjoins to connect the above and below water sectors (instead of teleports like in Duke Nukem 3D), so it could have full translucency/refractive water effects, etc. I believe there was a fog effect while underwater and zero gravity in Outlaws (so you can swim). Anyway it seems like a great fit for DarkXL - especially since it was implemented in the Outlaws version of the Jedi engine.

As for curves, I don't think we really need true curves for walls. I was planning on a curve tool for the editor, where you specify a set of points and tell it how much to subdivide and it'd then subdivide the edges and move the vertices so that they lie on the curve. So you can draw out the rough shape for your curvy hallway and then use the curve tool to make it look nice and smooth. If you want to edit the curve, go back to the curve tool and it'll remember what the original vertices were, so you can just move them around to further adjust the curves.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[sweatervest]

Concerning the weather, I think a more general particle system would be cool because, considering the types of environments in which the levels will take place, there could be very alien precipitation types that are nothing like the few weather conditions we have on Earth.

Jimmy Chicken mentioned Imperials with Repeater Rifles... this is a great idea for mods and would be especially cool if enemies carried all the different weapons that Kyle used. This could also be useful for implementing bots into the multiplayer mode.

Some possible features for the extended mode could be full screen motion blur and high dynamic range. Just to make them fightin' matches a little more like the movies.

[Tsophika]

[klasodeth]

[sheepandshepherd]

[Jimmy Chicken]

Mmm I've had some new ideas.


*Foot prints. Used for for snow, water, and mud.
*Security Cameras.
*An optional mirrored map mode, were the map would be rendered opposite of how it normally is.

[lucius]

Interesting ideas Jimmy Chicken, thanks.

Foot prints: cool, reminds me of Duke Nukem 3D when you swim in water or walk through blood. One of their cooler graphical features at the time.

Security Cameras: render targets have been implemented for the post processing system, so this is doable.

Mirrored Map Mode: Do you mean the map is mirrored along an axis? (like mirrored along the x-axis). This would be interesting to make the existing levels seem new to some degree.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Jimmy Chicken]

[sweatervest]

[Lionel Fouillen]

Does it really make sense to implement new features? Those who feel that DF is a bit short technically can simply play other games, can't they? Lucius, I have the impression you are almost recreating Jedi Knight or Jedi Outcast. Can't wait for DarkXL though, and its improved resolution/3D rendering over the original DF.

Cheers

[lucius]

[Jon`C]

[Lionel Fouillen]

[Barry Brien]

I really haven't been keeping up with DarkXL as much as I would like. I think I've asked this before but I'll ask again. Will it be possible to play Dark Forces using its original keyboard controls in DarkXL? I'm no good at playing with the keyboard and mouse.

[lucius]

Yes keyboard controls, view limited and various levels of auto-aim will be supported for those that prefer those features.

_________________
DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com