DF-21 Forums

[lucius]

I'd like to request that someone make a Kyle wax for DarkXL. It should be similar to the stormtrooper wax as far as animation quality and size. In addition to walking it'll need some new "actions":
*running (versus walking - just speeding up the anim would probably look weird).
*crouch
*crouch move
*jump (probably keep this simple - maybe just a mid-air pose)

It'll probably be similar to the "Doom" guy in the sense that he is always holding the same weapon and various animations are limited. This keeps in the spirit of the original technology and helps keep it in the original wax file limitations.

That said, if you want to add extra animations that I've missed you can (as long as you stay within wax limitations). If you'd like to suggest others, go ahead.

So you're probably asking: why? Well I'd like to start implementing some extended features as I go along - they help keep development interesting in addition to adding more interest to DarkXL further down the line. And some of those features, short term and long term, require a decent Kyle wax. An example short term feature: reflections (think of the floor reflections in DT3 but enhanced and much easier). An example of a long term feature: multi-player.

That said most of my time will still be spent implementing all the necessary features, fixes and enhancements needed for beta. My primary goals haven't changed - it just allows me a little more freedom on what I work on when I'm short on time. Also we need this eventually anyway if we want things like multiplayer Dark Forces.

Edit: I just want to mention that this is a longer term request. I'm not expecting this for the next build, probably not even the one after that - I just want to get the ball rolling because I know things like this can take a lot of time.

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[Ryuichi91]

I believe one of the wdfuse releases had an edited duke nukem sprite for Kyle

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[sheepandshepherd]

This one?

It's the first frame from WDFUSE's preview window . . . CYRA won't load it, but who knows, that may be my piece of junk computer's fault. The filename is \WDFUSE\WDFDATA\kyle.wax. Someone artistic could then take it and modify it to include the frames you need, if it's "kylish" enough in the first place.

[lucius]

Do you guys think it's "Kylish" enough? Honestly I don't think it looks right - the recoloring artifacts and Duke Nukem influence seem to be troublesome to me. Hopefully someone here with more artistic talent can make a better one. Remember once extended features such as reflections and multiplayer is implemented we'll be seeing alot of this wax for (hopefully) years to come - so it should be pretty decent I think.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Gez]

It does look rather bad.

[sheepandshepherd]

The gun, the face, and the shirt bother me especially . . . speaking of the gun, lucius, how will we handle switching weapons with this WAX, just make a separate one for each weapon? The shooting animation, unfortunately, is part of the WAX, so it'll look wrong throwing TDs out of a blaster rifle

[Magic_Al]

The Dark Forces Mod team did a pretty good job extrapolating Kyle's appearance. Maybe WAX frames could be gathered from "posing" that model?

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[sweatervest]

Perhaps we could look at the animation scenes between missions as a reference for Kyle's appearance.

[lucius]

If anyone has the modeling skills the best approach would be to model Kyle with the look based on the cutscene images (Dark Forces, not the sequels) and then pose that for the sprites. If the Dark Forces Mod team's model looks good/faithful enough then that can be used as Magic_Al suggests. If this approach is taken then someone with decent skills with a modeling package would have to take the necessary screenshots, at the correct resolution and some generic lighting (like the stormtroopers in DF) and then they or someone else (with good 2D skills) would then have to clean up the resulting bitmaps before putting it all together in a wax. Then this wax could be put into Dark Forces and/or DarkXL to make sure it fits in with the other sprites and environments. I'd do it myself but art is not my strong point.

Thanks sweatervest and Magic_Al for your suggestions.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[darktrooper27]

OK guys, I tried to put a more accurate face on Duke Nukem Kyle, and it looks pretty good, I have no idea how to do clothes and stuff, so I figure someone else can try and work on the clothes and guns.

[Ryuichi91]

The face definitely looks alot more like Kyle's than the Duke Nukem sprite edit.

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[darktrooper27]

Is there a special way to make WAXes because I don't know how to make a WAX. If someone can share there method of creating WAXes, I can probably work on some of them. BTW, I think it's awesome how good a job all of you guys are doing, especially Lucius. Keep up the good work.

[Tarvis]

I could probably do model rips of the Dark Forces Mod for Jedi Academy Kyle (I believe the original game graphics were model rips of 3D models, see the stormtrooper for example)

I'm going to see if I can get permission first however.

[lucius]

I think its important that Kyle matches the look as presented in the Dark Forces cutscenes. I don't mean that it can't be a model or anything like that - just that it should have the same style of clothing, body structure, face and so on. We should be able to see the in-game WAX and recognize it as Dark Forces "Mercenary" Kyle, rather then the future "Jedi" Kyle.

It looks like the Jedi Academy mod has a decent Kyle model from a few screenshots I've seen of him - but I just wanted to put forward my stance on using Kyle models from other games just in case.

Thanks for the effort.

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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com

[Magic_Al]

The Dark Forces Mod Kyle model is a pretty faithful interpretation. If they'll loan him "he would be a great asset."

I think this was an early test, the one in the current build might be a little different. They also modeled at least some of his weapons so they can be seen in third person as well.

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[Tsophika]

I'd like to volunteer to make a Kyle Katarn model. In fact I've been meaning to for some time. It could then be posed and rendered for a WAX. Here's a quick sample of some of my past work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiXpGnGvxWI

[klasodeth]

That's some pretty nice work there, Tsophika.

Some things I noticed about Kyle Katarn is that his jacket seems to be rather bulky, which makes sense given that he's clearly wearing rigid armor underneath. Also, in-game Kyle's bare forearms tend to be visible, so the sleeves on Kyle's jacket should probably be rolled up a bit.

[lucius]

Tsophika Your models look good.

If you want to model a Kyle model and then build a WAX that would be great. Make sure that you model or get models for Kyle's weapons as well.

Here's how the WAXs will work. There will be a WAX for each weapon. Then each wax would have Kyle's animations and 8 views for each frame. Animations include walk, run, stand (idle), crouch, crouch walk, crouch run, jump, shoot/throw/punch (depends on weapon), walk and shoot, run and shoot, crouch and shoot. There might be some I'm forgetting. The game will then switch to the correct WAX depending on which weapon Kyle has equipped. Ideally the base WAX will be of similar quality to the Stormtroopers (in size and animation quality) so that it fits in. However if we ever have high resolution waxs then of course a higher resolution Kyle wax would have to be made to match.

There will be 2 cases where the Kyle WAX will be visible so far - in reflections (reflective floors/walls, water, etc.) and multiplayer.

I do have a question for you guys though. I plan on making a DarkXL wax like format for DarkXL specific art. This would be similar to the current wax format but will support full 32 bit images (rgb + alpha) - to eliminate the palette restrictions. So should we use this for the Kyle wax since its not really useful for basic Dark Forces? It seems like it'll make generating new art for extended features (like this wax) easier.

If you have any questions, let me know.

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[Tsophika]

There are really just two images of Kyle from the original game. This one, and standing in front of Jabba without his thick jacket. There may be a concept image or two in the Strategy Guide that can be used as reference, I'd have to look.



The novellas are no good, depicting him in his Jedi Knight garb. But I do rather like this beard-less depiction of Jason Court for the head:

[BD Hopkins]

[BD Hopkins]

As far as creating sprites from 3D models is concerned, Google reveals that are at least two programs that will produce sprites from 3D models. I don't know if they are any good at what they do. I suppose if you created a 3D model that could be rotated in a viewer along both axes, you could just use screenshots of the model taken at various angles as the basis for high resolution sprite art.

This approach also gives me another idea that seems easier than creating models for each character from scratch. About half of the sprite-based enemies and characters from DF have been made into action figures. Most of these figures possess a good likeness to their digital counterparts, display a decent amount of detail, and have movable major joints. Photographs of the figures at various angles and poses could be the basis for the sprite art.

Stormtrooper (2007)
Commando (2007)
Officer (2006)
a Gran (1998)
a Trandoshan (2007)
Boba Fett (2007)
Crix Madine (2004)

a Gamorrean (2004) - No bendable elbows/knees/wrists

Unfortunately, not every DF character has been made into an action figure, and not all of the figures are likely to be cheap enough or accurate enough for my tastes. There could thus be an issue with visual consistency if not all the sprites are created via the same approach.

Probe Droid (2007) - Probably too rare/expensive
Mousebot (1999) - Probably too rare/expensive
Phase III/Mohc (2007) - Probably too rare/expensive

Kyle Katarn (1998) - Not accurate enough
Interrogation Droid - Not accurate enough
Dianoga (2002) - Not accurate enough

Dark Trooper Phase I- Not found
Dark Trooper Phase II- Not found
Jan Ors- Not found
Kell Dragon- Not found

[Gez]

[BD Hopkins]

[The MAZZTer]

That looks like concept art for the image of Kyle in the briefing cutscene.

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[danielmc]

[Magic_Al]

Who knew that jacket had a hood? Good find.

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Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of
Imperial methods, MagicAl prepares to go to lunch....

[BD Hopkins]

[danielmc]

Yes. You're right. Sorry My mistake. Illustrator really gives comparable results.

[BD Hopkins]

[Patrick Haslow]

It's a bit surprising that no one ever really attempted a WAX of Kyle...or Jan for that matter. Its probably important to know what logic the WAX is intended to use. I suppose that one could be started to use basic stormtrooper logic, and then the additional frames could be created for optional logics, with him using different weapons.

I recommend not using higher quality 3D renders for Kyle. It won't match the look of the original WAXes and look out of place. It needs to be created by hand as pixel art. I might have a go at it sometime soon, so I can post the first standing frame and see what people think.

Cool to see that concept art. Never saw it before!