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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Jan 16, 2010 00:20 Post subject: Thoughts on making DarkXL a "complete" port. |
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Note I'm going to use the word "port" to describe DarkXL. Even though no source code is available, this is meant to be as much like an extended port as possible - as opposed to a re-envisioning. Or a remake in the spirit of a port. Also, discussion herein talks about plans beyond reaching beta.
I've been thinking of some things I need to do to make DarkXL a "complete" port, something that purists as well as those who want a modernized port will want to use to play Dark Forces. So there are some things that I want to accomplish before the end of beta ("release"). This assumes that all the Dark Forces levels are fully playable, cutscenes work, music works correctly, behaviors are fine tuned, etc. - all the stuff necessary for beta (we're not there yet but the next build is a major step in that direction).
* Support for an optional "pure" rendering mode - including emulated 320x200 (and 640x400), emulated 256 color mode, look up and down shearing (using a special off-center projection) and so on. I've been resistant to this idea in the past (especially 256 color mode) but I've been thinking of doing something like this for a DS port - so I might as well put this on the PC as well - since the DS doesn't have the horse power for the fully perspective portal clipping that the perspective correct DarkXL rendering needs. Obviously extended features would be disabled in this mode. This will be off by default, I think most people like the higher resolutions, texture filtering, smooth shading and so on.
(This version could also be ported to other less powerful/portable platforms)
* Optional OpenGL backend (mostly to allow easier porting, but the best way to keep it maintained is to make sure the Windows version continues to work properly).
* Linux port.
* I will also be seeking someone to port the Linux version to Mac OS X in the future.
I've been entertaining some ideas of what to do once DarkXL reaches beta or the release stage (one of which was DoomXL - but I think I'll probably go with the option below instead). However I've also been reconsidering my stance on Outlaws. Many Doom ports also support other "Doom engine" games such as Doom2, Heretic and so on. I've been considering taking the same approach with the DarkXL engine and extending it to support Outlaws (the only other Jedi engine game I know about). This would mean that I would not only add support for Outlaws once reaching release, but continue to improve DarkXL into the foreseeable future. This includes full multiplayer support for DarkXL and all the engine features of both games, plus the extended features I've already discussed, available for mods done for either. Right now this is the option I'm leaning toward the most.
So what do you guys think? Is there anything that I'm missing that you think really needs to be there to make DarkXL the best way to play Dark Forces? What do you think of supporting Outlaws and sharing engine features?
As usual any comments, questions or suggestions are welcome.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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sheepandshepherd
Trandoshan
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Jan 16, 2010 01:13 Post subject: |
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A DS port? Mmmmm . . . never thought about that before, but it sounds really interesting. Being a lot more simplistic than average games today, Dark Forces would certainly play well on a handheld device. I don't own a DS myself, but ask around - maybe this'll be a popular idea. (Only question is, how do you legally get Dark Forces onto a Nintendo DS?)
Outlaws support would be pretty interesting as well -- I finally dug up the old CDs a while back. Of course, it isn't as well-known as Dark Forces, but since the few major differences between their engines are planned for Extended Mode anyway, it shouldn't be too much extra work. My suggestion would be to focus on DXL's extended features first (slopes, vertical adjoins, and double adjoins), but keeping in mind how they work in Outlaws. That way whenever you decide to start Outlaws work, you can quickly reuse the existing code without a lot of overhauling. Your multiplayer support for Outlaws can probably be reused in DXL as well.
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Gez
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Jan 16, 2010 01:56 Post subject: |
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Quote:
Many Doom ports also support other "Doom engine" games such as Doom2, Heretic and so on.
All Doom ports do support Doom 2, given that Id coded it so that they'd need only one exe for all six Doom IWADs (Doom shareware, Doom registered, Doom retail aka Ultimate Doom, Doom 2, and both halves of Final Doom, TNT and Plutonia).
Support for Heretic, Hexen and Strife is more rare. There's only Vavoom, ZDoom, and ports derived from ZDoom that do it; though I think it's planned for Eternity (at least Heretic and Hexen, there's already some partial support written in). On the other hand, there's the Doomsday approach, with the core components (renderer, physics, netcode, etc.) in a shared library and the game-specific code each in its own exe. Personally I much prefer the Vavoom/ZDoom approach of having support for all games in a single engine, so as to offer features from all supported games in each one.
Support for Outlaws seems a good idea. Given its additional features were things you wanted to implement in DarkXL to begin with, it'll be a fruit that won't be hanging too high. Further, it reduces the risk of having someone forking DXL in order to create "OXL".
OpenGL version of the renderer: very good for portability. Might also help attracting other contributors once the code is available, since the open source community is much more familiar with that library than with DirectX, as a general rule.
DoomXL postponed until further notice: also seems a good idea. Your earlier idea of maybe supporting other game engines in editor mode seems more feasible (no need to bother with the simulation code) and might interest people more.
Last edited by Gez on Jan 16, 2010 10:58; edited 1 time in total |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Jan 16, 2010 02:17 Post subject: |
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The Vavoom/ZDoom approach will be needed since I do want to support features from both games at once. At that point you can use all the features when mapping, such as a VUE type system for Outlaws or weapons with scopes for Dark Forces.
As for the OpenGL backend, it is necessary in order to port to other non-Microsoft systems. (Well without using a Windows emulator on Linux or something like that anyway). In order to support things like the DS, then clean multiple/different low-level renderer support is needed. So while being attractive to some OS enthusiasts may be a boon, it is a necessary step for other reasons. 
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Jan 17, 2010 04:07 Post subject: |
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Lucius, I don't care what you do as long as the quality is comparable to Doomsday or eduke32. And I know you have the capability, so just keep making me happy in subsequent releases. 
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"If they were created by man, then we can solve them by man." -Tim Sabien
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alkaline888
Ree-Yees
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Jan 18, 2010 01:48 Post subject: |
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 WOW WOW WOW 
Returning to this site after a VERY long absence and I'm thrilled to see DarkXL so far along.
What a phenomenal idea and amazing amount of work, lucius. My hat's off to you, the thought of a complete and fully compatible DarkXL is fueling ideas of reviving some custom levels I was working on with a friend.
So far, our levels don't work with DarkXL. Tell, me, what do you think is the most common element that causes user-made levels to malfunction? Bad INF?
Trying to catch up on all of the news... forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.
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Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand.
—Kurt Vonnegut |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Jan 18, 2010 06:34 Post subject: |
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alkaline888 wrote:
WOW WOW WOW
Returning to this site after a VERY long absence and I'm thrilled to see DarkXL so far along.
What a phenomenal idea and amazing amount of work, lucius. My hat's off to you, the thought of a complete and fully compatible DarkXL is fueling ideas of reviving some custom levels I was working on with a friend.
So far, our levels don't work with DarkXL. Tell, me, what do you think is the most common element that causes user-made levels to malfunction? Bad INF?
Trying to catch up on all of the news... forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere.
The two main areas that need work, after the next build, are missing logics (pretty straight forward) and missing/incorrect INF functionality. Those are my next areas to tackle, after that all the levels (except for maybe some bugs) should work.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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sweatervest
Ree-Yees
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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| Posted: Jan 19, 2010 17:06 Post subject: |
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GreggD wrote:
Lucius, I don't care what you do as long as the quality is comparable to Doomsday or eduke32. And I know you have the capability, so just keep making me happy in subsequent releases.
Not to put lucius under any more pressure but I honestly see DarkXL possibly surpassing those source ports. At the get-go lucius was already discussing advanced lighting models (real-time shadows, bump-mapping, etc.) and other things that have definitely been brought up in the forums for those other ports but as far as I know there are not any solid intentions for such fancy things. I'm hoping that DarkXL eventually starts looking like Tenebrae, the Quake source port that uses a per-pixel lighting model. A lot of times people discuss whether it is even feasible to add such things to old games, but if DarkXL does it that argument will be forever settled! 
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Jan 19, 2010 17:16 Post subject: |
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sweatervest wrote:
GreggD wrote:
Lucius, I don't care what you do as long as the quality is comparable to Doomsday or eduke32. And I know you have the capability, so just keep making me happy in subsequent releases.
Not to put lucius under any more pressure but I honestly see DarkXL possibly surpassing those source ports. At the get-go lucius was already discussing advanced lighting models (real-time shadows, bump-mapping, etc.) and other things that have definitely been brought up in the forums for those other ports but as far as I know there are not any solid intentions for such fancy things. I'm hoping that DarkXL eventually starts looking like Tenebrae, the Quake source port that uses a per-pixel lighting model. A lot of times people discuss whether it is even feasible to add such things to old games, but if DarkXL does it that argument will be forever settled!
One can hope.
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"If they were created by man, then we can solve them by man." -Tim Sabien
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joel96
Ree-Yees
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Feb 01, 2010 22:27 Post subject: DF complete porti-tude |
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First of all, hi. Hi everyone! Glad you let me in on this most promising of ports. I'm likin' it overall so far. I want to help advance the project some more, and I have a special way of doing that, but it must remain seeecreettt for now. So. On with the brutal (but constructive) criticisms.
1. Biggest problem, the menu doesn't match the one in DF at all. Worse, there is no option to turn off in-game music. Just do a side-by-side comparison to see what I mean. I'll get around to posting pics eventually.
2. There is no music in the opening sequence, (the one with the yellow crawl), and the one with the Mouldy Crow zooming to the planet.
3. The Gearup cutscene is completely missing. The patch that is on the Steam forums works fine on the Steam version but not the DarkXL version.
4. I hear rumors herebouts that Level 4 is not completeable. The Steam forums never got a reply back about it. I haven't tried it myself.
5. Cheat codes don't work. This is really, really bad. Issue 4 would be able to be bypassed if you got these to work. They work fine in the Steam version. The one I really miss is LADATA, which would turn on coordinates, which is good when you're following a walkthrough. The warp cheat is also good and would help with future broken walls and levels.
I have Windows 7 x64, the Steam version of DF, the 8.05 version of DXL, and my rig is: Intel E7300 Dual Core, AMD 4870HD, 750GB 7200.12 HDD, 4GB 1066MHz RAM, and onboard Realtek audio.
Keep up the good work, people. George would be proud, If I say so myself.
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Yes, I am that joeybuddy96. |
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Feb 01, 2010 22:46 Post subject: Re: DF complete porti-tude |
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joel96 wrote:
First of all, hi. Hi everyone! Glad you let me in on this most promising of ports. I'm likin' it overall so far. I want to help advance the project some more, and I have a special way of doing that, but it must remain seeecreettt for now. So. On with the brutal (but constructive) criticisms.
Hello, thanks for trying it out. I'd like to ask that you talk to me about your "secret" plans to help the project before you enact them - in PM or e-mail if you desire.
joel96 wrote:
1. Biggest problem, the menu doesn't match the one in DF at all. Worse, there is no option to turn off in-game music. Just do a side-by-side comparison to see what I mean. I'll get around to posting pics eventually.
If you mean the options menu, then yes it does not match. That is intentional - there are many settings that either don't make sense anymore or that are new to DarkXL. The ability to adjust music and sound volume will be returning however. In the meantime, the music will be at a much lower volume in the next build - it is obnoxiously loud on some windows systems - and that needs to be fixed.
joel96 wrote:
2. There is no music in the opening sequence, (the one with the yellow crawl), and the one with the Mouldy Crow zooming to the planet.
I'll look into that.
joel96 wrote:
3. The Gearup cutscene is completely missing. The patch that is on the Steam forums works fine on the Steam version but not the DarkXL version.
If the patch affects the Dark Forces exe then it would not have any effect on DarkXL. I can figure out methods of making it work in the future but it is honestly very low priority.
joel96 wrote:
4. I hear rumors herebouts that Level 4 is not completeable. The Steam forums never got a reply back about it. I haven't tried it myself.
This is true, DarkXL is not at beta yet - some things still don't work correctly. I am working on it however.
joel96 wrote:
5. Cheat codes don't work. This is really, really bad. Issue 4 would be able to be bypassed if you got these to work. They work fine in the Steam version. The one I really miss is LADATA, which would turn on coordinates, which is good when you're following a walkthrough. The warp cheat is also good and would help with future broken walls and levels.
Also true. You can hold 'G' to pass through any adjoin and 'F' to fly for now, full cheat support will come later.
joel96 wrote:
I have Windows 7 x64, the Steam version of DF, the 8.05 version of DXL, and my rig is: Intel E7300 Dual Core, AMD 4870HD, 750GB 7200.12 HDD, 4GB 1066MHz RAM, and onboard Realtek audio.
Keep up the good work, people. George would be proud, If I say so myself.
Thanks for the compliments.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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The MAZZTer
Death Star
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Feb 02, 2010 00:28 Post subject: |
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My comments:
1. Why does it need to? We're not going for a complete match to DF, we want to extend it in some ways! There's no point in rewriting it if you can't improve it.
3. Similarly, making unofficial patches work is a low priority item on the list of making things work. Still it should work eventually, just need to get DarkXL to look for and load resources in the same order and places DF does.
4. So? It's a WIP. Cry some more.
5. See 4. I don't see how it's a "really bad idea". Cheat codes are extras, little things devs can put in to help them test and/or a bonus for players. They aren't required for the main game and shouldn't be necessary to beat it. If you find yourself using them regularly you should practice playing more without them.
And I dunno about George, but as long as we're careful about intellectual property we can avoid being sued into the ground, which I am thrilled about personally.
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Jimmy Chicken
Gamorrean
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Fenwar
Admiral Ackbar
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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Fenwar
Admiral Ackbar
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Feb 06, 2010 23:53 Post subject: |
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Ah wait - I don't know what the patch on the Steam forums actually does.
Joel - try the one we have here: http://df-21.net/downloads/misc.html and see if it works for you. I don't know where you're getting gearup.lfd from though (if the Steam forums patch includes the lfd itself then it shouldn't be distributed, as that's LEC's own content) - does the Steam release include the full contents of the CD-ROM?
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The MAZZTer
Death Star
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Feb 07, 2010 16:39 Post subject: |
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gearup.lfd is on the DF CD... the DF CD includes the DF demo which has the LFD.
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Feb 07, 2010 21:09 Post subject: |
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Also, I just saw that you released build 9.0. You should probably do a thread about it, here.
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"If they were created by man, then we can solve them by man." -Tim Sabien
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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lucius
DarkXL Developer
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Feb 07, 2010 21:26 Post subject: |
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When I took ownership of the site, I did some organizational work on the forums. The regular forums were put into "General Forums" category - for anything Dark Forces related. The DarkXL forum was put into its own category and split into 4 subforums: DarkXL News, DarkXL General Discussion (this subforum), Feature Suggestions and Screenshot of the Day. I originally talked about the change in this topic in the Feedback forum.
Regardless, thanks for your continued interest in DarkXL. And don't forget to check out the other subforums too.
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DarkXL....http://darkxl.wordpress.com |
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| Posted: Feb 07, 2010 22:12 Post subject: |
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lucius wrote:
When I took ownership of the site, I did some organizational work on the forums. The regular forums were put into "General Forums" category - for anything Dark Forces related. The DarkXL forum was put into its own category and split into 4 subforums: DarkXL News, DarkXL General Discussion (this subforum), Feature Suggestions and Screenshot of the Day. I originally talked about the change in this topic in the Feedback forum.
Regardless, thanks for your continued interest in DarkXL. And don't forget to check out the other subforums too.
Thanks. I actually did know, but had completely forgotten about it, due to my bookmarking the General Discussion forum, instead of the main page. I have terrible foresight. 
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"If they were created by man, then we can solve them by man." -Tim Sabien
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joel96
Ree-Yees
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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Barry Brien
Dark Trooper Phase 1
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Feb 10, 2010 21:53 Post subject: |
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I agree, the cheats should be incorporated. I'm still pretty crap at this game. Only been playing it for 15 years
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Fenwar
Admiral Ackbar
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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The MAZZTer
Death Star
Joined: 25 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Feb 12, 2010 00:00 Post subject: |
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Errr right, I guess that wouldn't work.
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GreggD
Gamorrean
Joined: 05 May 2008
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joel96
Ree-Yees
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Feb 12, 2010 17:36 Post subject: |
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The LFD works with the Steam version, but you need to get the file manually from the downloads section of df-21.net, or from the cutscene post on the Steam forums.
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Yes, I am that joeybuddy96. |
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